Why you don't need a capacitor

[Fallen]

Rich were you doing that daily or only for like 30 seconds at a time tho?

[stratusrt01]

I was doing it daily, but only for about a month before I bought an alternator. But I just monitored my voltage, and when it got below 12, turned it down, and let it charge all the batteries back up.

[Fallen]

Wow thats impressive.

[SCHMITTY]

Caps are not completely useless. A cap is a device used to supply quick energy to a sudden increase in electrical demand. A cap only has enough energy so supply that demand until the charging system can respond.

All a cap does is respond faster than your bat/alt and keep voltage up until the bat/alt can take over. A cap is 100% completely useless if your charging system is inadequate.

If you are running a 2000 watt stereo off of a stock battery and alternator, it doesn't matter how big your cap is, it won't make a difference. But if you have a large battery (such as a few yellow tops), and a H.O. alternator capable of powering your 2000w stereo, an adequately sized cap will make a difference.

I'll say it again, all a cap does is supply a quick burst of energy which powers the system until the alternator can respond.

In conclusion, a cap is a waste of money unless you have already spent the money to upgrade your battery, alternator, and big 3, in which case it is a worthy addition.

[SCHMITTY]

Also, the reason that most competition grade stereos do not have caps is because about 90% of the time they play test tones, not actual music. On a test tone, there is only the initial sudden power demand when the tone starts and then the demand holds steady at that level. A cap is useless when playing test tones.

[caps]

Originally Posted by SCHMITTY

Also, the reason that most competition grade stereos do not have caps is because about 90% of the time they play test tones, not actual music.

wrong

[NewVega]

the info was right. my cap was holdin my spare battery down. gained a volt by ditching it. excellent post

[blackout]

Originally Posted by SCHMITTY

Also, the reason that most competition grade stereos do not have caps is because about 90% of the time they play test tones, not actual music. On a test tone, there is only the initial sudden power demand when the tone starts and then the demand holds steady at that level. A cap is useless when playing test tones.

lmao, so how would you explain bass racing or bass boxing?

[stratusrt01]

I guess he either didn't read the first posts, or he didn't comprehend them. It's not negotiable, they don't add voltage or keep voltage up at all, this was easily proven by Richard Clark's experiments and math using ohm's law.

[SCHMITTY]

I agree with the conclusions drawn by Richard Clark and everyone else, caps are useless as a power source and can actually have negative effects on your electrical system. I never tried to say that he was wrong, all I was saying is that a cap is used to respond QUICKLY. A cap responds within milliseconds while an alternator responds within tens or hundreds of milliseconds. What I was trying to say is that a cap is supposed to be used for covering that brief period of time between the demand for current and the alternator responding. That's all they're good for, they're useless as a long term power supply ---which is how best buy and other such places use them.

As for what I said about 90% of comps. being test tones, i forgot about bass race and such. My bad, I'm a nublet there.

[Grizzleyadams69]

that was hard to follow. maybe im just stupid.

[speakerbox1]

well I have never bought a cap and damn glad i didn't that was so in depth i think i have a migraine. Thanks that was awesome! good job.

Now my lights dim so how many 9v batteries should I run lol

[v6f150]

I still beleive it realy depends on what kind of cap you buy. If you purchase one of those hybrid caps with carbon in hem your out of gas cuz you will pop the internal resisters with a harsh system (I have done it) but if you purchase a cap from like batcap 25 Farad Capacitor wich stays at whatever your charging unit delivers uptill 16v. Spoke to them in Datona SBN. So again I do beleive they only work if you have an adequate charging system and batt and they do make an even bigger difrence in your every day sq unless you have tons of cash and a pick up to load the bed with batts and alts. Again I think everthing is vehicle and setup specific and alot of caps out there are junk but dont kill the good ones

[fusionblazer]

well ive always heard 1 farad to every 1000 watts

[reddude157]

in the early days of car stereo amps there was alot of crappy amps
out there .and the cars that we were puting them in had very noisey
electric systems in them and most of us on the street had a bunch
of 6x9's and to cure the engine whine you would get was to put a
cap on your power wires and some torid coil noise supressors.
well when you started to get lots of current flowing thru radio shacks best
[back then when they carried stuff ]you'd wanted something to handle that amprage so the big cap was the way to go. remember a cap is a noise
supressor but the big one's have alot of potential of electricity stored in them for that big amp draw on that 30hz bomb blast rumble other than
that you would not really need a cap today with the car as they are i.e
its own computer the car companies cleaned up the elec sys .so if you dont draw more than about 80amps and use the right wires you dont really
need a cap but if you want a really high quality sound put the cap in and most are made of the same matirals any way

[twistedchild420]

I got a cap,not hooked up though,maybe i shouldn't hook it up,i saw a kinetic 2000 at the pawn shop for 299$,that might be a little overkill though!

[Sevening]

What is this "overkill"? I don't recognize this word. Is it real? Is there a limit to how awesome or dead you can make something?

[twistedchild420]

very true,good point!

[the68cam]

my ranger would kill when bass hit and now it doesnt! 5 farad cap only change huh !!! why doesnt it kill any more ? cap had to do some thing.

[pbassmusic]

I have been installing forever and always having debates over if a cap does anything good for a sound system or not. I think Richard Clark summed it up pretty effectively..perhaps some can argue against logic..but ohms law is un debatable.

What I believe is the clincher is when he states "It should be clear that if the voltage doesn’t drop the caps don’t do anything. The voltage MUST drop for them to start discharging". So in all logic that tells me the voltage MUST be dropping for the cap to even be doing anything other then sitting there like an expensive bag of rocks...and IF the voltage is dropping..surely the first place you are going to notice it is with lights dimming. Especially if you were exceeding the alternators capabilities..which should be in the 14v range..and the battery is at 12v range..I can't imagine a 2v or greater drop not being noticeable.

In my experience I have found upgrading wiring and poor grounds does more to help with light dimming then a cap ever would. Of course assuming you are not exceeding the alternators output.which in that case nothing but using less power..and/or upgrading the alternator would be the only solution. I only mention this because I hear so many people claiming a cap helped with light dimming. Is that really it's intended purpose? I thought it was to stabilize voltage at the amp ..although I think Clark has debunked that theory as well.

[mudslingur]

Originally Posted by stratusrt01

I know it's long, but it explains in great detail for any of the doubters when I say there is no use for a cap in car audio, written by the man himself, Richard Clark. I normally wouldn't copy and paste something from the internet, but this was too good of info to let pass by this site, since there are so many questions about capacitors.

I have an old school Monster Cap(made by Monster Cable) and it has written on it "exclusively engineered and designed by Richard Clark and David Navone"
A cap would never be needed for competition use for obvious reasons but for a vehicle that has a mild system, or for someone on a budget, a cap helps to relieve some stress on the vehicles stock charging system
Ex. I have seen many systems that when amplifiers are drawing there most power(bass hitting) the headlights will temporarily dim because the amplifier is "stealing" that power. A cap will help with this problem by supplying that stored energy.
Of course everything is relative, but to say that their is never a need for a cap, I think is a misleading statement.
We all wish we could have 3 yellow tops, two alternators, unlimited runs of 4/0...etc.

[pbassmusic]

Originally Posted by mudslingur

I have an old school Monster Cap(made by Monster Cable) and it has written on it "exclusively engineered and designed by Richard Clark and David Navone"
A cap would never be needed for competition use for obvious reasons but for a vehicle that has a mild system, or for someone on a budget, a cap helps to relieve some stress on the vehicles stock charging system
Ex. I have seen many systems that when amplifiers are drawing there most power(bass hitting) the headlights will temporarily dim because the amplifier is "stealing" that power. A cap will help with this problem by supplying that stored energy.
Of course everything is relative, but to say that their is never a need for a cap, I think is a misleading statement.
We all wish we could have 3 yellow tops, two alternators, unlimited runs of 4/0...etc.

It wouldn't matter if you had 1000 yellows tops and a few purple tops..if the amplifiers are demanding more current then the electrical system (batteries and alternator) can deliver...there will be voltage drop. This is undisputed and the crux of what Clark is teaching us.

By your last sentence in your reply is insinuating that a cap can be used as a substitute for good batteries and high output alternators...it is not. If you really think you "need" a cap..you have to ask yourself "why"?

If it simply to help eliminate headlight dimming in a lower powered system..well as long as the alternator is able to meet the current demands..you should not "need" a cap on the AMP..the lighting circuit would benefit more with the cap. But to save money upgrading the big 3..and possibly increase the ga of the power and ground wires of the lights themselves..would be less expensive and more effective that a cap on the amplifier.

In all logic..why are the lights dimming? Because they are suffering a voltage drop. And since the cap can and will not do anything UNTIL there is a voltage drop across it's terminals...I can't see a cap being of much use other then a band aid. Unlike the amplifier which is constantly changing it's dc current demands as the music plays..a light draws a very steady current...but since the battery(s) are in the 12v range..and the alternator should be in the 14v range..if there is enough draw to cause a voltage drop while the vehicle is running...it would not matter if you had 50 yellow tops..the voltage would still drop and there may be some dimming. The purpose of a battery (other then for extreme SPL burp systems) is to start the vehicle, and filter ripple currents (aka alternator whine).

[mudslingur]

Originally Posted by pbassmusic

It wouldn't matter if you had 1000 yellows tops and a few purple tops..if the amplifiers are demanding more current then the electrical system (batteries and alternator) can deliver...there will be voltage drop. This is undisputed and the crux of what Clark is teaching us.

By your last sentence in your reply is insinuating that a cap can be used as a substitute for good batteries and high output alternators...it is not. If you really think you "need" a cap..you have to ask yourself "why"?

If it simply to help eliminate headlight dimming in a lower powered system..well as long as the alternator is able to meet the current demands..you should not "need" a cap on the AMP..the lighting circuit would benefit more with the cap. But to save money upgrading the big 3..and possibly increase the ga of the power and ground wires of the lights themselves..would be less expensive and more effective that a cap on the amplifier.

In all logic..why are the lights dimming? Because they are suffering a voltage drop. And since the cap can and will not do anything UNTIL there is a voltage drop across it's terminals...I can't see a cap being of much use other then a band aid. Unlike the amplifier which is constantly changing it's dc current demands as the music plays..a light draws a very steady current...but since the battery(s) are in the 12v range..and the alternator should be in the 14v range..if there is enough draw to cause a voltage drop while the vehicle is running...it would not matter if you had 50 yellow tops..the voltage would still drop and there may be some dimming. The purpose of a battery (other then for extreme SPL burp systems) is to start the vehicle, and filter ripple currents (aka alternator whine).

You sound like your in your first year of school or just finished reading a book( or all the treads on here ) by making redundant statements throughout the post.
How you interpret my last sentence is way off base. In plain English it means if everyone could afford x amount of batteries and x amount of alternators a cap would then never be of use. BTW where can I get a purple top? I will take a couple.
The main point of my reply was that Richard Clark designed a cap back in the day probably when you were riding a bike. It was around $200 and I still use it today and it without a dought helps my situation which is all that matters. I build systems for SQ and bass that sounds like your standing front stage of Metallica's double bass drum.
You could very well look at a cap as a band-aid( instead of upgrading alt.,bat. etc.
Yes the voltage demands of the amp change with the music and when it needs that brief moment of higher voltage the cap is there to supply it( w/ correct size & proper install ) instead of the alt. and then the lights don't dim because the alt. can continue to supply their needs.
I write in posts to try and help people out and not to try and proove who knows more....but it is obvious from your reply that you either did not read the whole post or didn't understand it, which is perfectly fine. How can you comment on something that you have never experienced with( " I can't see a cap being of much use" ) is what I don't get..........sorry to of offended you player.

[pbassmusic]

Originally Posted by mudslingur

You sound like your in your first year of school or just finished reading a book( or all the treads on here ) by making redundant statements throughout the post.
How you interpret my last sentence is way off base. In plain English it means if everyone could afford x amount of batteries and x amount of alternators a cap would then never be of use. BTW where can I get a purple top? I will take a couple.
The main point of my reply was that Richard Clark designed a cap back in the day probably when you were riding a bike. It was around $200 and I still use it today and it without a dought helps my situation which is all that matters. I build systems for SQ and bass that sounds like your standing front stage of Metallica's double bass drum.
You could very well look at a cap as a band-aid( instead of upgrading alt.,bat. etc.
Yes the voltage demands of the amp change with the music and when it needs that brief moment of higher voltage the cap is there to supply it( w/ correct size & proper install ) instead of the alt. and then the lights don't dim because the alt. can continue to supply their needs.
I write in posts to try and help people out and not to try and proove who knows more....but it is obvious from your reply that you either did not read the whole post or didn't understand it, which is perfectly fine. How can you comment on something that you have never experienced with( " I can't see a cap being of much use" ) is what I don't get..........sorry to of offended you player.

No need to get personal bro..it's just a friggen cap..we are not curing cancer or world hunger here..lighten up.

And sorry that we agree to disagree..I read the whole post..I understand the principles of a capacitor.... and capacitance...and they have a use in AC circuits so try not to take everything so literally Mr. purple top.. But for DC in the way they are being sold and the false promises of what they can and can't do..bottom line for me is still..they are not of much, if any use..now if everything in the system is able to deliver the current demands, and if everything or anything (weakest link) in the system can not handle the current demands..you believe or have witnessed a cap help..I on the other hand have not..we don't need to hate over this..we just have different experiences.

If you do not understand this please argue with Richard Clark, I do not really care that much about it..my life will go on just fine with or without caps, or if I am right or wrong about their usage. If you have had experiences where adding a stiffening cap on its own made a noticeable and/or measurable difference in the sound and/or performance of your system, I have no problem with that..more power to you..I can only base my facts and opinions on the matter from my personal experiences..and the teachings of others with far more experience and engineering background then I would ever hope to possess.

As far as a purple top...you have to make it yourself..but it still won't help with anything once the vehicle is running if the alternator is not up to par..or if you are suffering voltage drop from insufficient wiring. No "magic" can of cureall will make up for that..at least not from anything ohms laws tells us..I am not looking for a pissing match with you..please don't take this the wrong way..I learn something new every day..we all can.

I am not here to prove who knows more..or who is right..it doesn't mean that much to me in the scheme of my life, but I do get sick of people telling my customers that they "need" a cap..when I know that is complete hogwash. I have nothing against using a stiffening cap (I make great margin on the product, install and related accessories with selling one), but I use it as an "icing on the cake" item..when everything else is up to par..I can not promise my customers that a cap install on it's own can make their system sound better, have more bass, save their alternator and battery..or prevent or eliminate headlight dimming...I can not in good conscious make that promise.

And that is really my only point..my feelings were not hurt and I was not offended in any way , I hope you were not either.

[SCHMITTY]

I think you're both right partially. The way caps are generally used today in car audio is as a band-aid to attempt (and fail) to cover up for insufficient electrical.

A cap is ultimately useless unless you've got the batteries and alternators to supply the amp without the cap. If you do have the alts and batts though, a cap will help by responding to an electrical demand faster than the alt or batts. The cap will essentially cover for the alt for those few milliseconds until it can take over supplying the needed current.

The improvement gained from a cap is really rather small and the money would be better spent on a better alt or another battery.