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Old 10-21-2009   #1 (permalink)
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Default Chambered Tapped Horn Or 6th order series tuned bandpass.


Hey all. This place is dead, so I thought I'd liven it up.


This here is a Chambered Tapped Horn. Something interesting is it looks a lot like a series tuned 6th order bandpass. Well turns out they are pretty much the same. In WinISD I am getting nearly the exact same response plot as HornResp within it's passband.

Which is really really interesting, since one is derived from 1/4 wave calculations and the other from mass and spring...

But it's good that the two models agree, it probably means this will work the way I want.

Well that is, if Derek is up to building it.
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Old 10-21-2009   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Chambered Tapped Horn Or 6th order series tuned bandpass.

Hell, I'll Build it. Don't have any subs to put in it though, so it'd just be a big paperweight.
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Old 10-21-2009   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Chambered Tapped Horn Or 6th order series tuned bandpass.

That looks really cool.
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Old 10-21-2009   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Chambered Tapped Horn Or 6th order series tuned bandpass.

to me it implies it is a very good alignment, that works bassed on 2 totally different proven designs.

how does driver selection come into play with this configuration?
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Old 10-22-2009   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Chambered Tapped Horn Or 6th order series tuned bandpass.

To me it's the missing link. Connecting 1/4 wave theory to mass-spring-damper theory. Well it's not really that big a deal, I just think it's cool that I can show it.

It's kinda cool too since it shows that Hoffman's Iron Law doesn't care what kind of box it is. If the size and low end extension are the same, so too will the efficiency...more or less. I mean you could have some mean ripple in one design, so it has higher peak output, but it would also have lower output at its dips.

Driver selection is paramount. These subs have a really big effect on the response. Definitely can't go dropping any sub into the box. The subs in here will be DC LV3 10s. If we put say DD9510s in they would bottom out quicker than you can say "shredded VCs"...The chamber does not provide much suspension for the drivers. It's good for subs with weaker motors, they can more easily compress the air inside the chamber.
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Old 10-22-2009   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Chambered Tapped Horn Or 6th order series tuned bandpass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fallen View Post
To me it's the missing link. Connecting 1/4 wave theory to mass-spring-damper theory. Well it's not really that big a deal, I just think it's cool that I can show it.

It's kinda cool too since it shows that Hoffman's Iron Law doesn't care what kind of box it is. If the size and low end extension are the same, so too will the efficiency...more or less. I mean you could have some mean ripple in one design, so it has higher peak output, but it would also have lower output at its dips.

Driver selection is paramount. These subs have a really big effect on the response. Definitely can't go dropping any sub into the box. The subs in here will be DC LV3 10s. If we put say DD9510s in they would bottom out quicker than you can say "shredded VCs"...The chamber does not provide much suspension for the drivers. It's good for subs with weaker motors, they can more easily compress the air inside the chamber.
great, I'll have to purchase a design from you for my IB3 then, so it doesn't go to waste after I'm done playing with it in-car
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Old 10-22-2009   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Chambered Tapped Horn Or 6th order series tuned bandpass.

:P Maybe if I start doing designs again :P
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Old 10-22-2009   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Chambered Tapped Horn Or 6th order series tuned bandpass.

can i get some demsions when your not busy so i can get building? lol
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Old 10-22-2009   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Chambered Tapped Horn Or 6th order series tuned bandpass.

it intrigues

could it be modified to work for, say, a very low q woofer walled into a trunk opening?
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Old 10-22-2009   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Chambered Tapped Horn Or 6th order series tuned bandpass.

ol im up to building it thats for sure! i need a desisgn i can fire into the cabin of Car and that seems to be the only way to do it!
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Old 10-22-2009   #11 (permalink)
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Default Re: Chambered Tapped Horn Or 6th order series tuned bandpass.

What are you hoping to get from this as far as response? Flat, peaky? And what frequencies do you intend it to play?

I was going to make something like this, so I'm interested in the results.
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Old 10-22-2009   #12 (permalink)
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Default Re: Chambered Tapped Horn Or 6th order series tuned bandpass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fallen View Post
:P Maybe if I start doing designs again :P
haha... I was almost gonna spell it out like that as it says directly in your sig... but we both know better you just can't resist sometimes, and I love it hah

Quote:
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What are you hoping to get from this as far as response? Flat, peaky? And what frequencies do you intend it to play?

I was going to make something like this, so I'm interested in the results.
dude. it's fallen. it will be as flat as possible, wide as possible, and low taking cabin gain and a million other things most of us don't even think about into consideration
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Old 10-22-2009   #13 (permalink)
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Default Re: Chambered Tapped Horn Or 6th order series tuned bandpass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by profundus-sanus View Post
it intrigues

could it be modified to work for, say, a very low q woofer walled into a trunk opening?
That's the plan
Quote:
Originally Posted by fox_racin4 View Post
ol im up to building it thats for sure! i need a desisgn i can fire into the cabin of Car and that seems to be the only way to do it!
Good...because if you don't build it, I will...and I'll shove it up your ass.
Hahaah...
That's the only way you'll be able to do(firing into the cabin).

Quote:
Originally Posted by creyc View Post
What are you hoping to get from this as far as response? Flat, peaky? And what frequencies do you intend it to play?

I was going to make something like this, so I'm interested in the results.
Right now it is flat from 35-100Hz in half space with an efficiency of 105dB/w/m. It's down 3 at 32Hz or so. So in car it would have quite the impressive low end. It also peaks at 120Hz or so, at 110dB/w/m...but that peak is useless. With more tweeking I want to shift that peak down to 80Hz and the -3dB point down to 30Hz.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kryptonitewhite View Post
haha... I was almost gonna spell it out like that as it says directly in your sig... but we both know better you just can't resist sometimes, and I love it hah



dude. it's fallen. it will be as flat as possible, wide as possible, and low taking cabin gain and a million other things most of us don't even think about into consideration
You got me hahaha. Though it's current itteration is meant to be flat on a football field.

BTW in the corner of a room(1/8th space) IT can do a 145 with 6kW from 35Hz-100HZ no problem(Edit...thermal power compression might be an issue, but mechanically it's sound). Not considering room modes or anything else that would up it's output. The subs bottom at 28HZ or so with 6kW too...it would be a beast on music. Especially with the peak(150dB) at 120Hz lol. I might need to make one haha.

So the hope is, if it can do 150 in a house, it should be able to do it in a car. I just want to bring the peak down into a more useable range.
Edit

I haven't shown any bracing either. This box WILL need it. The pressures involved will be very high. And loose panels sound like poo in horns.
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Old 10-22-2009   #14 (permalink)
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Default Re: Chambered Tapped Horn Or 6th order series tuned bandpass.

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Originally Posted by Fallen View Post
Good...because if you don't build it, I will...and I'll shove it up your ass.
Hahaah...
That's the only way you'll be able to do(firing into the cabin).
a real fart box!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fallen View Post
Right now it is flat from 35-100Hz in half space with an efficiency of 105dB/w/m. It's down 3 at 32Hz or so. So in car it would have quite the impressive low end. It also peaks at 120Hz or so, at 110dB/w/m...but that peak is useless. With more tweeking I want to shift that peak down to 80Hz and the -3dB point down to 30Hz.


You got me hahaha. Though it's current itteration is meant to be flat on a football field.
nope, you got me! I expected it to be flat AFTER in-car... so it's actually more the way I like it... so I may be looking into a variation that brings it down even lower yet

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fallen View Post
BTW in the corner of a room(1/8th space) IT can do a 145 with 6kW from 35Hz-100HZ no problem(Edit...thermal power compression might be an issue, but mechanically it's sound). Not considering room modes or anything else that would up it's output. The subs bottom at 28HZ or so with 6kW too...it would be a beast on music. Especially with the peak(150dB) at 120Hz lol. I might need to make one haha.
:-O 4 10's 6kW no bottom out?!
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Old 10-22-2009   #15 (permalink)
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Default Re: Chambered Tapped Horn Or 6th order series tuned bandpass.

haha it will be gettin built dont worry

and yes they arnt bottomin gout right now in 3.9 at 34 hz so

bracing will be getting done forsure haha
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Old 10-22-2009   #16 (permalink)
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Default Re: Chambered Tapped Horn Or 6th order series tuned bandpass.

Fallen,

Looks interesting. There is a design I've seen that is similar but on a much smaller scale. Rear chamber sort of a tapered TL before expanding into a short horn and load both sides ala TH. He had problems with the drivers bottoming really easy despite the sims saying that excursion would be well under control, so double check your power handling sims, it's a tricky loading on the drivers to get right.

Build it!

BTW have you ever messed with any 8th order designs? They are intriguing, but sort of like trying to make a cobra dance with a flute. Very finicky. Supreme driver loading and excursion control though. Looks like about 2 octaves is all you can get out of one. I haven't cut wood on one yet, but I've got design. I've got a program that I've been using that will model them if you want a link hit me up.

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Old 10-22-2009   #17 (permalink)
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Default Re: Chambered Tapped Horn Or 6th order series tuned bandpass.

Yeah right now I can only get 2 octaves out of this thing really, 30-120 or so.
I haven't really touched 8th orders yet, because honestly they are huge. I know that is an over generalization, but with 3 ports already a lot of volume is lost. So in a trunk I only really see them being viable with 1 10... Maybe 1 12.
Modeling it is another thing, I don't really want to have to do everything in akabak, and that's the only way I know how to do an 8th order bp.

Hmm that's a shame about the loading. I guess we'll see what happends :S



Wait a sec, are you talking about that Moron on DIY audio? With the single SDX-7
That guy has no clue what he's doing. His sims had absolutely nothing to do with what he built.
I commented in that thread, but he was too dense to understand that the box was garbage.
This is nothing like that...well it is, but the L23 is more than 2" long lmao

EDIT



This is with 1W in 1/8th space(corner loaded) Not in a car.

Dark grey is with 2 12" Hifonics Atlas subs
Light Grey is with 4 DC LVL3 10s

Just like a ported box, the lower Q drivers are peaking at the tuning freq and the higher Q ones are peaking much higher.

Edit

See they agree!

Down to 10Hz they are within .5dB of each other. I wish I could change the freq range on the Hornresp graph...it skews it compared to the WinISD one.
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Last edited by Fallen; 10-22-2009 at 06:24 PM.
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Old 10-22-2009   #18 (permalink)
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Default Re: Chambered Tapped Horn Or 6th order series tuned bandpass.

Oh and I don't want this box to be hyped up or anything.
It's just an ingenious way of fitting 4 10s into a trunk.
It's not going to have say 10dB more output than a ported box.
From the graphs of Dereks old box vs this, it would be 1-2 dB louder and that's about it. Well at 120Hz it's much louder, but that's not useable.

So it's more or less just a ported box since the front chamber is not really affecting the response in the range we'll be using.

It's unfortunate, but I can't seem to tune the front lower, without losing output...If I had more space I could shift that peak down. Oh well.

So yeah I don't want anyone to thinks this is the next big thing...It's just a box serving a purpose...fitting 4 10s into a trunk.
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Sub amp: Hifonics BXi1606
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Enclosure: Tapped Horn
Wire:2/0 welding cable
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Old 10-22-2009   #19 (permalink)
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Default Re: Chambered Tapped Horn Or 6th order series tuned bandpass.

I vote sealed. =|







































JK.
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Old 10-22-2009   #20 (permalink)
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Default Re: Chambered Tapped Horn Or 6th order series tuned bandpass.

i knew there was a way to get all 4 10s fireing forward! ahha
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Old 10-22-2009   #21 (permalink)
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Default Re: Chambered Tapped Horn Or 6th order series tuned bandpass.

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I vote sealed. =|







































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I vote STFU noobix.
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HU: Pioneer DEH-80PRS
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Sub amp: Hifonics BXi1606
Speakers: Stock Infinity
Subwoofers: 2 Sundown SA-8V2
Enclosure: Tapped Horn
Wire:2/0 welding cable
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Old 10-22-2009   #22 (permalink)
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Default Re: Chambered Tapped Horn Or 6th order series tuned bandpass.

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Originally Posted by Kryptonitewhite View Post
:-O 4 10's 6kW no bottom out?!
That's one of the nice things about tapped horns, the compression ratio changes depending upon the cross section of L2. Done right, you can make a sub's cone break into pieces before it bottoms out. Of course chances are that it'd fail thermally long before that.

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I vote STFU noobix.
I vote sealed from the cabin, that's what the pro's do!
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Old 10-22-2009   #23 (permalink)
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Default Re: Chambered Tapped Horn Or 6th order series tuned bandpass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCHMITTY View Post
That's one of the nice things about tapped horns, the compression ratio changes depending upon the cross section of L2. Done right, you can make a sub's cone break into pieces before it bottoms out. Of course chances are that it'd fail thermally long before that.


I vote sealed from the cabin, that's what the pro's do!
I want him to expanding foam it in place, that would seal it into the cabin err seal the trunk from the cabin err...whatever.
Plus that would brace the box nicely I would imagine.
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Enclosure: Tapped Horn
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Old 10-22-2009   #24 (permalink)
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Default Re: Chambered Tapped Horn Or 6th order series tuned bandpass.

it will be getting foamed......into place once its said and done lol casue then i wont want another box ahah!
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Old 10-22-2009   #25 (permalink)
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Default Re: Chambered Tapped Horn Or 6th order series tuned bandpass.

I feel like a little grass hopper. Keep learnin me guys.

so those 4 10's sealed we saw smashing 16Hz.... how would that compare to this?
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