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Old 10-10-2012   #1 (permalink)
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Default Enclosure for 2 Sundown Audio SA12s
Hi Everyone,

It's time i get a new box for my subs. Long story short i had my Fusion PPSW120s in a PWK box then when i got my SA12s i had someone design me a box and it was 4th order but it played low very low and lacked in the highs so i put them back in the PWK box but i think it is limiting the subs.

So, If anyone can please design me an enclosure it would be appreciated. Details Below:

Max Dimensions: 39cm High X 45cm Deep X 96cm Wide

Vehicle/desired placement: Car is an AE92 Corolla Hatchback. I have been told that subs up port back is good like my current box but i'll leave it up to you guys.

Power: 900W @1Ohm

What kind of music you listen to: Dubstep with heavy/low drops, Trance, House etc and some rap.

woofer type/quantity/size: 2 Sundown SA12s

Thank you for your help in advance!

Cheers, Jacob.
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Old 10-10-2012   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Enclosure for 2 Sundown Audio SA12s
Do you still have the 4th order? The upper tuning on it was too low if it couldn't play higher notes. If you chopped a few inches off of the port length it would raise tuning and extend your upper response.


I also doubt that Pete's box is the issue with the sa's. Do you have any specs on that box?
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Old 10-10-2012   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Enclosure for 2 Sundown Audio SA12s
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Originally Posted by kingtube69 View Post
Hi Everyone,

It's time i get a new box for my subs. Long story short i had my Fusion PPSW120s in a PWK box then when i got my SA12s i had someone design me a box and it was 4th order but it played low very low and lacked in the highs
Sounds like another victim of the "rule of thumb".

Can you post up the drawings of the 4th order?
Depending on how the chambers are arranged it might be an easy fix.
But if it has a really large vented chamber, and small sealed chamber, cutting down the port length will only make it have a larger peak, higher in frequency. yuk.

If that's the case, and you can access the inside of the box easily, you might be able to use the old baffle as bracing, put a new baffle in, so that the sealed chamber is an appropriate volume, and the vented chamber is an appropriate volume and tuning. But without knowing what the 4th orders dimensions are I can't really give any advice.

That said, 4th orders can sound excellent, when implemented correctly.



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Old 10-10-2012   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Enclosure for 2 Sundown Audio SA12s
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fallen View Post
Sounds like another victim of the "rule of thumb".

Can you post up the drawings of the 4th order?
Depending on how the chambers are arranged it might be an easy fix.
But if it has a really large vented chamber, and small sealed chamber, cutting down the port length will only make it have a larger peak, higher in frequency. yuk.

If that's the case, and you can access the inside of the box easily, you might be able to use the old baffle as bracing, put a new baffle in, so that the sealed chamber is an appropriate volume, and the vented chamber is an appropriate volume and tuning. But without knowing what the 4th orders dimensions are I can't really give any advice.

That said, 4th orders can sound excellent, when implemented correctly.
By rule of thumb are you referring to the 2:1 ratio that most people try to sick with?
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Old 10-10-2012   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Enclosure for 2 Sundown Audio SA12s
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Originally Posted by jcarver1112 View Post
By rule of thumb are you referring to the 2:1 ratio that most people try to sick with?
Yup. (Ported:sealed, now if you do 1:2 you actually get something with a decent response)
Which is completely ridiculous. If anyone actually plotted the response they'd know that. It's great for SPL though...

You know what's funny? For years those prefab 4th order fartboxes, with their small sealed chamber and larger vented chamber, have been mocked on forums. Then 4 years later everybody seems to love that alignment.



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Old 10-10-2012   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Enclosure for 2 Sundown Audio SA12s
Hi Guys, Thanks for the responses!

There is the sketchup file he gave me, i did a cut list from this but its on my HDD with all my enclosure files at work:

Download SNDWN-SA12D2-D4THORDR-JACOBKINGTUBEV2.skp - zSHARE

ScreenShot2012-08-26at41044PM.png picture by kingtube69 - Photobucket
ScreenShot2012-08-26at41031PM.png picture by kingtube69 - Photobucket
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Old 10-10-2012   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Enclosure for 2 Sundown Audio SA12s
Quote:
Originally Posted by kingtube69 View Post
Hi Guys, Thanks for the responses!

There is the sketchup file he gave me, i did a cut list from this but its on my HDD with all my enclosure files at work:

Download SNDWN-SA12D2-D4THORDR-JACOBKINGTUBEV2.skp - zSHARE

ScreenShot2012-08-26at41044PM.png picture by kingtube69 - Photobucket
ScreenShot2012-08-26at41031PM.png picture by kingtube69 - Photobucket
Yup it's a typical "rule of thumb" 4th order, where the rule of thumb is some terrible rule. I don't know who came up with it, or why it's being propagated. It's totally unsuitable for most music. Can you remove any panels? Is there an access hatch? Or are the subs in there permanently?



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Old 10-10-2012   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Enclosure for 2 Sundown Audio SA12s
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fallen View Post
Yup. (Ported:sealed, now if you do 1:2 you actually get something with a decent response)
Which is completely ridiculous. If anyone actually plotted the response they'd know that. It's great for SPL though...

You know what's funny? For years those prefab 4th order fartboxes, with their small sealed chamber and larger vented chamber, have been mocked on forums. Then 4 years later everybody seems to love that alignment.
I agree with Fallen here... I'm running the 1:2 setup and it sounds great... Nice coverage from 30-80 hz with nice gains...
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Old 10-10-2012   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Enclosure for 2 Sundown Audio SA12s
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beckerson1 View Post
I agree with Fallen here... I'm running the 1:2 setup and it sounds great... Nice coverage from 30-80 hz with nice gains...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fallen View Post
Yup it's a typical "rule of thumb" 4th order, where the rule of thumb is some terrible rule. I don't know who came up with it, or why it's being propagated. It's totally unsuitable for most music. Can you remove any panels? Is there an access hatch? Or are the subs in there permanently?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fallen View Post
Yup. (Ported:sealed, now if you do 1:2 you actually get something with a decent response)
Which is completely ridiculous. If anyone actually plotted the response they'd know that. It's great for SPL though...

You know what's funny? For years those prefab 4th order fartboxes, with their small sealed chamber and larger vented chamber, have been mocked on forums. Then 4 years later everybody seems to love that alignment.
I don't know the first thing about 4th's but the logic does stand to reason that a larger sealed portion would work better for music. Its common knowledge that small sealed boxes increase the mechanical limits of the sub thus it gives it higher spl potential (with added power) but at a risk for cooling problems as well large ported enclosures naturally peak higher. So how to fix it, bigger sealed allowing less Power to do more and smaller ported so you have the advantage of a tuned port but still maintaining a flatter response. Unless your just trying to get really loud I don't know why you would want the ported side larger.
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Old 10-10-2012   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Enclosure for 2 Sundown Audio SA12s
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcarver1112 View Post
I don't know the first thing about 4th's but the logic does stand to reason that a larger sealed portion would work better for music. Its common knowledge that small sealed boxes increase the mechanical limits of the sub thus it gives it higher spl potential (with added power) but at a risk for cooling problems as well large ported enclosures naturally peak higher. So how to fix it, bigger sealed allowing less Power to do more and smaller ported so you have the advantage of a tuned port but still maintaining a flatter response. Unless your just trying to get really loud I don't know why you would want the ported side larger.
basically, people hear 2:1 and run with it. its the same thing with the 12-16 rule to port area(to some degree). There is no real rule to either, as it is very woofer, and power, dependent. With 4ths you can make them into nearly any response you could imagine, they are very very versatile. The thing that most people fail to recognize is that the ported section controls the upper range of the box, counter intuitive to people accustomed to strictly vented enclosures. They are naturally inclined to give a big ported section since that is what usually makes boom in their other boxes, but not a 4th.
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Old 10-10-2012   #11 (permalink)
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Default Re: Enclosure for 2 Sundown Audio SA12s
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Originally Posted by cxa0897 View Post
basically, people hear 2:1 and run with it. its the same thing with the 12-16 rule to port area(to some degree). There is no real rule to either, as it is very woofer, and power, dependent. With 4ths you can make them into nearly any response you could imagine, they are very very versatile. The thing that most people fail to recognize is that the ported section controls the upper range of the box, counter intuitive to people accustomed to strictly vented enclosures. They are naturally inclined to give a big ported section since that is what usually makes boom in their other boxes, but not a 4th.
Umm, that is counter intuitive to how I would think it works as well. Why would you want to add to the upper frequencies when sealed enclosues are already rather good ad reproducing them? I would think that you would want to design a larger sealed enclosure to see where the frequencies start to drop off then add the ported on top of it tuned about 6-10hz below that drop off point?

edit: just speculation btw I'm no 4th expert.
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Old 10-10-2012   #12 (permalink)
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Default Re: Enclosure for 2 Sundown Audio SA12s
sealed section is responsible for the lower cutoff and low end response, ported side controls upper end response and the upper cut off.

its like trying to tell people your box hammers the lows, but it is tuned to 60 hz. think about the responses you would get from that
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Old 10-10-2012   #13 (permalink)
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Default Re: Enclosure for 2 Sundown Audio SA12s
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Originally Posted by cxa0897 View Post
sealed section is responsible for the lower cutoff and low end response, ported side controls upper end response and the upper cut off.
I believe you just doesn't seem like it would work that way
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Old 10-10-2012   #14 (permalink)
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Default Re: Enclosure for 2 Sundown Audio SA12s
So i opened winisd and played with that sa-12 a little. I've never done a 4th so heres what I came up with.... Is this what you would want it to look like? The yellow is sealed the blue is the 4th.



Maybe even tune down loser to 45
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Old 10-10-2012   #15 (permalink)
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Default Re: Enclosure for 2 Sundown Audio SA12s
read

http://forum.realmofexcursion.com/en...tml#post921662
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Old 10-10-2012   #16 (permalink)
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Default Re: Enclosure for 2 Sundown Audio SA12s
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fallen View Post
Yup it's a typical "rule of thumb" 4th order, where the rule of thumb is some terrible rule. I don't know who came up with it, or why it's being propagated. It's totally unsuitable for most music. Can you remove any panels? Is there an access hatch? Or are the subs in there permanently?
Yeah, i made the top and front removable just for this purpose because i didn't know what it would sound like. Each removable panel is sealed at the joint with a rubber strip and screwed down. Once I'm happy chances are that i will just redo the box again sealing the entire thing of making a removable back or something simple.


What do you recommend that i do now?
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Old 10-10-2012   #17 (permalink)
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Default Re: Enclosure for 2 Sundown Audio SA12s
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sweet thank you, I'll read and report back
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Old 10-10-2012   #18 (permalink)
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Default Re: Enclosure for 2 Sundown Audio SA12s
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcarver1112 View Post
So i opened winisd and played with that sa-12 a little. I've never done a 4th so heres what I came up with.... Is this what you would want it to look like? The yellow is sealed the blue is the 4th.



Maybe even tune down loser to 45
That's pretty decent.
Now compare that to a rear chamber of 1 cuft and a front chamber of 2cuft tuned to 33Hz. You'll see why I think the common 2:1 ratio is nonsensical.



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Sub amp: Hifonics ZXX-3200.1D
Subwoofers: 4 SA8V.2 @ 2 Ohms
Enclosure: 2 cu ft ported, tuned to 33Hz
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Old 10-10-2012   #19 (permalink)
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Default Re: Enclosure for 2 Sundown Audio SA12s
Quote:
Originally Posted by kingtube69 View Post
Yeah, i made the top and front removable just for this purpose because i didn't know what it would sound like. Each removable panel is sealed at the joint with a rubber strip and screwed down. Once I'm happy chances are that i will just redo the box again sealing the entire thing of making a removable back or something simple.


What do you recommend that i do now?
Cut an 11" hole in each removable baffle and mount the subs on it.



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Car: 2009 Audi A4 Avant Quattro
Sub amp: Hifonics ZXX-3200.1D
Subwoofers: 4 SA8V.2 @ 2 Ohms
Enclosure: 2 cu ft ported, tuned to 33Hz
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Old 10-10-2012   #20 (permalink)
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Default Re: Enclosure for 2 Sundown Audio SA12s
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Originally Posted by Fallen View Post
That's pretty decent.
Now compare that to a rear chamber of 1 cuft and a front chamber of 2cuft tuned to 33Hz. You'll see why I think the common 2:1 ratio is nonsensical.
Yep I plugged that in too just for fun and it was one of those WTF kind of graphs lol. It looked like a great one note wonder if that's your goal. The sad truth is though LOUD sells, even if it is only at 5-10hz bandwith. Take kicker for example.
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Old 10-10-2012   #21 (permalink)
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Default Re: Enclosure for 2 Sundown Audio SA12s
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Originally Posted by jcarver1112 View Post
Yep I plugged that in too just for fun and it was one of those WTF kind of graphs lol. It looked like a great one note wonder if that's your goal. The sad truth is though LOUD sells, even if it is only at 5-10hz bandwith. Take kicker for example.
ill repeat for the 1000th time, but kicker isnt really a bad product. its the people using it that are bad. in an oversized box tuned low they actually perform damn well.
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Old 10-10-2012   #22 (permalink)
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Default Re: Enclosure for 2 Sundown Audio SA12s
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fallen View Post
Cut an 11" hole in each removable baffle and mount the subs on it.
What do you mean? :S Are you able to do a dodgey drawing please?'

So essentially making it no longer a 4th order?
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Old 10-10-2012   #23 (permalink)
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Default Re: Enclosure for 2 Sundown Audio SA12s
Quote:
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ill repeat for the 1000th time, but kicker isnt really a bad product. its the people using it that are bad. in an oversized box tuned low they actually perform damn well.
Didn't say a bad product, and I have no experience with there round subs but I couldn't hardly make the l7 or sx line even kind of close to flat. The round ones are probably much flatter
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Old 10-10-2012   #24 (permalink)
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Default Re: Enclosure for 2 Sundown Audio SA12s
Quote:
Originally Posted by cxa0897 View Post
ill repeat for the 1000th time, but kicker isnt really a bad product. its the people using it that are bad. in an oversized box tuned low they actually perform damn well.
Agreed. Especially in tapped horns. Wooo
Quote:
Originally Posted by kingtube69 View Post
What do you mean? :S Are you able to do a dodgey drawing please?'

So essentially making it no longer a 4th order?
Yes. It would turn it into a regular old ported box, with lots of bracing.
Roughly 2 cu ft tuned to 33Hz per chamber.
Stuff with polyfil to taste.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcarver1112 View Post
Didn't say a bad product, and I Dave no experience with there round subs but I couldn't hardly make the l7 or sx line even kind of close to flat. The round ones are probably much flatter
The L7s have won quite a few SQ competitions



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Car: 2009 Audi A4 Avant Quattro
Sub amp: Hifonics ZXX-3200.1D
Subwoofers: 4 SA8V.2 @ 2 Ohms
Enclosure: 2 cu ft ported, tuned to 33Hz
Last edited by Fallen; 10-10-2012 at 07:29 PM.
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Old 10-10-2012   #25 (permalink)
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Default Re: Enclosure for 2 Sundown Audio SA12s
i owned a 15" l7 at one point in my early career. cant believe i sold it before i got a chance to try it out.
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