a custom built cap that can really replace a battery - Realm of Excursion



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Old 01-31-2011   #1 (permalink)
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Default a custom built cap that can really replace a battery

YouTube - Fun with ultracapacitors

So, after I watched that, I thought, humm, if I Wire 6 in series, and slowly, safely charge them up to 14 volts, i wonder how they would fair vs say a d1200, in a normal Car audio environment.

When I can afford the caps, I am actually going to buy some and see how well they work.
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Old 01-31-2011   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: a custom built cap that can really replace a battery

Those do look very interesting, i do have to give them that. I wonder if they take recharge after recharge, or not?
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Old 01-31-2011   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: a custom built cap that can really replace a battery

that was pretty crazy
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Old 01-31-2011   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: a custom built cap that can really replace a battery

the best part about them is the charge and discharge abilities, they should last alot better than batteries....... now i want some
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Old 01-31-2011   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: a custom built cap that can really replace a battery

Quote:
Originally Posted by collinb1234 View Post
Those do look very interesting, i do have to give them that. I wonder if they take recharge after recharge, or not?
That was my main concern as well. I mean, they are something like 20 bucks each, so 6 would come out to around 140 with shipping, which if I recall correctly, would be cheaper, and lighter in weight than a comparable lead-acid cell.
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Old 01-31-2011   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: a custom built cap that can really replace a battery

Ultracaps are a whole new breed of power...

nothing like standard garbage foil caps are by any means

they have been using them for a short time in many industrial apps and the military
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Old 01-31-2011   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: a custom built cap that can really replace a battery

Haha yeah. 1 or 2 farad vs 2600 is a STARK difference.
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Old 02-01-2011   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: a custom built cap that can really replace a battery

Quote:
Originally Posted by perfect_prefect View Post
the best part about them is the charge and discharge abilities, they should last alot better than batteries....... now i want some
Well if you have a littlt extra money..try it out!!!!!!!!!!
I wanna know how it goes!
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Old 02-01-2011   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: a custom built cap that can really replace a battery

that beaver really took a pounding! lmao

very interesting though. with an esr that low they can supply their amperage very quickly. 7 in series would be an interesting test.
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Old 02-01-2011   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: a custom built cap that can really replace a battery

amn, forgot the esr would be going up every time you series one.


so 6 in series would be 4.2 milliohms... which a optima yellow top is 2.5 milliohms esr
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Old 02-01-2011   #11 (permalink)
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Default Re: a custom built cap that can really replace a battery

how fast do they recharge?
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Old 02-01-2011   #12 (permalink)
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Default Re: a custom built cap that can really replace a battery

Quote:
Originally Posted by sri3850341 View Post
how fast do they recharge?
I'm not sure. I'd imagine you could find that info on the mfr website.
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Old 02-01-2011   #13 (permalink)
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Default

You can definitely use these for car audio. Just make sure you have enough in series. I ran some calculations a while back when I was talking to Joe about them.
Anyways the ESR is fairly low compared to most caps, and batteries. They are used in subways, monorails, etc for regenerative breaking, so they need an ESR that is close to a dead short.

Anyways I've been debating on getting some of these, since I'm thinking they would outlast the typical 2-3yrs I'm getting from my AGM batteries. Obviously they aren't a replacement for all batteries in the car, but for the bank in the back they would be good. Just keep in mind they are a cap, not a battery, so they still suffer from being a real ****ty voltage source(since the voltage will depend on current drawn...whereas a good car battery should give you the same voltage for a wide range of currents).

Quote:
Originally Posted by sri3850341 View Post
how fast do they recharge?
Assuming 433F and 4.2mR for a bank of 6, they should charge from 0V to 99.9% full in
5 * (4.2 milliohms) * (433 farads) = 9.09300 seconds

A drop from 14.4V to 12.47V(86.6%, 3 time constants) would take

3 * (4.2 milliohms) * (433 farads) = 5.4558 seconds


Assuming the load presented to the cap was a dead short(only resistance is it's ESR.

In actuallity you would need to figure out the current you are drawing, and the voltage as it changes with time. Some differential equations later, and you'd know how long it would last.
Needless to say, it's much less than a battery.
But still, it serves a purpose.

Link for parts:
http://www.goldmine-elec-products.co...?number=G17930

Anyways it's 12 for $240.
For me, that's about what a yellowtop is around here.
With 12, do series parallel to get you 1000F safe up to 16V or so.
The ESR would be 2.1mR in this case, which is rivaling the yellow top as well.
But again, these things aren't batteries...
But they sure would do a great job keeping the voltage in the system up even under heavy loads.



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Old 02-01-2011   #14 (permalink)
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Default Re: a custom built cap that can really replace a battery

Thanks for chiming in, Fallen. I was hoping for your insight.
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Old 02-01-2011   #15 (permalink)
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Default Re: a custom built cap that can really replace a battery

So, these could be a replacement for huge battery banks? Should I try these? So, I would use a normal battery up front, and run these in place of the battery bank in the rear?
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Old 02-01-2011   #16 (permalink)
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Default Re: a custom built cap that can really replace a battery

id think you would want a good battery bank to go along with them wouldn't you?
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Default Re: a custom built cap that can really replace a battery

I dont know, that is why I was asking haha. I really like the idea of these!
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Old 02-02-2011   #18 (permalink)
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Default Re: a custom built cap that can really replace a battery

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Originally Posted by blackdragonx1186 View Post
Thanks for chiming in, Fallen. I was hoping for your insight.
he is a smart s.o.b aint he
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Old 02-02-2011   #19 (permalink)
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Default Re: a custom built cap that can really replace a battery

Quote:
Originally Posted by profundus-sanus View Post
amn, forgot the esr would be going up every time you series one.


so 6 in series would be 4.2 milliohms... which a optima yellow top is 2.5 milliohms esr
to clarify..

this means a yellow top could provide current faster
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Old 02-02-2011   #20 (permalink)
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Default Re: a custom built cap that can really replace a battery

Quote:
Originally Posted by profundus-sanus View Post
to clarify..

this means a yellow top could provide current faster
but what if there was 2 banks of 6 in parallel? the main reason i even pointed it out was because my car cannot handle weight at all, so i was looking for something that could replace a heavy lead acid cell.
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Old 02-02-2011   #21 (permalink)
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Default Re: a custom built cap that can really replace a battery

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Originally Posted by blackdragonx1186 View Post
but what if there was 2 banks of 6 in parallel?
it appears that would be the case,being as or more efficient than a yt, but when is it cost effective, appears you'll be paying double for the caps as apposed to one yt
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Old 02-02-2011   #22 (permalink)
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Default Re: a custom built cap that can really replace a battery

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackdragonx1186 View Post
but what if there was 2 banks of 6 in parallel? the main reason i even pointed it out was because my car cannot handle weight at all, so i was looking for something that could replace a heavy lead acid cell.
You would need the 2 banks of 6 series capacitors to come close to the performance of a yellow top.

Even then as the battery discharges, its curve is like this



The cap will look like this


Compared to the battery graph,
((11 V) / (165 A)) - (2.1 milliohms) = 0.0645666667 ohms


(0.0645666667 ohms) * 1000 farads = 64.5666667 seconds

So the battery lasts about 3 minutes without dropping the voltage too much, the cap will last about 1 minute before it drops to 38%...

With the engine off the yellow top(or any lead acid battery) will be superior IMO. But if there is an alternator to keep the cap charged up between peaks, then it would work fine.

Either way the battery is probably still the way to go...but I want to screw around with a super cap. And I'm kinda sick of my AGMs biting the dust after 3 years(I think the caps would last longer, but don't quote me on that).



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Old 02-02-2011   #23 (permalink)
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Default Re: a custom built cap that can really replace a battery

humm. i didnt quite think they would discharge that quickly. probably wouldnt work to well for me because i still have my stock alt, which can barely keep up with my current electrical demands.
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Old 02-02-2011   #24 (permalink)
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Default Re: a custom built cap that can really replace a battery

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackdragonx1186 View Post
humm. i didnt quite think they would discharge that quickly. probably wouldnt work to well for me because i still have my stock alt, which can barely keep up with my current electrical demands.
Yeah. More or less think of them as giant smoothing caps. But in the end, all the power should be coming from the alt. If not even batteries will eventually run out of charge.

You might be better off with a upgraded alt before this.

But basically this just averages the current draw over time. So the big peak draws, and the periods where the amp is just idling are averaged out. So if your alt can supply enough current to keep up with the average draw you should be OK.

Either way, that cap can only store
(1 / 2) * (1000 F) * (11 V) * (11 V) = 60 500 joules

whereas sealed lead acid batteries can store millions of joules. (I think around 2 million is usable in a group 34 yellowtop)

So anyways great for filling in the peaks and dips(reeealllly big peaks with these caps!). But definitely not a battery.
But you probably could start a car with the bank



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Old 02-02-2011   #25 (permalink)
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Default Re: a custom built cap that can really replace a battery

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackdragonx1186 View Post
humm. i didnt quite think they would discharge that quickly. probably wouldnt work to well for me because i still have my stock alt, which can barely keep up with my current electrical demands.
just realised you have the same engine as my car(mines a sl not the sc) both 99, it sucks that we dont have a direct fit alt to upgrade to, but i did find out that the 97 uses the same alt but a square plug for the alt, so if we get a plug from a 97 saturn and splice it on we could run a high output alt for a 97 on are 99... i seen the 97's with 140 amp alt's not great but its better that are 90 amp
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