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Old 10-29-2012   #1 (permalink)
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Default More GP bass

Good new bad news. Bad news my old car, the A4, was totaled. Good news I'm now one of many Grand Prix owners Also I get to do my system right from the beginning now that I'm not a total noob


Layin on the ground cuz its nice out today

All I know right now is that there is a set of RCA's and one run of 8 gauge going to the trunk but I haven't checked out what the story is behind the dash yet or where they ran the wires.This Build wont be the quickest moving due to funds, but when something does go in I'll be a picture whore.

So I've sold all off the entire old system and I'm ready to get the ball rolling on this build. I've got a mental list of most of the things I need to buy from beginning to end. First off is the Wire and other things I need to run under my carpet. Going straight to 1/0 gauge because I know how the addiction goes I read the 1/0 gauge guide a couple times and for the price it seems you can't beat the cadence wire so unless someone gives me a good reason to not get it or a better alternative I'll be buying this Cadence 1/0 in the next couple of days.

Hopefully going active front so I need 1 maybe 2 more sets of RCA's. Any of good quality will do and I've got one good set of Kicker's so I might just get 2 more matching sets. I have 16 gauge Speaker wire that I got free so if that is sufficient for 50-100 RMS then I'm good there.

First on the list to do is the substage. 4th order box because I want whatever sub I get to be protected from idiot friends that throw stuff into my trunk and because I don't like the way any of the ported boxes I've listened to sound. Granted they have mostly been pre fab or pawnshop boxes. My budget on a sub is below 250 so 3 I think that are proven solid are the Gcon, SA, and OA. I'm leaning to the Gcon right now because it has a 3" coil. Ampwise the AQ750 looks good to me or the 1200 if you think I could benefit by having headroom there.

I haven't chosen a HU yet and I don't know how hard it is going to be to integrate with the stock monsoon mumbo jumbo and keep steering wheel controls and whatever. I would rather wait till I can get a nice one and do it right then to just toss in some garbage unit right away.

Here's my attempt following Fallen's WinISD guides. If feels like I didn't do much besides enter the woofers params and choose the enclosure type. Orange is 4th, teal ported and yellow sealed. All have HP, LP and Linkwitz transforms applied with the same params that Fallen used.


Same with the SA 12


All constructive criticism is greatly appreciated too especially on the above boxes as they are my first attempt at using WinISD

And that is all the time I have for this till I'm done with work today. Replies coming in about 6 hours from now.
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Ni I'm trying to get him arrested for theft cause that much moofer for that price is an out right steal
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Old 10-29-2012   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: More GP bass

What do you want out of the box? Strictly SPL, SQ?

Did you change the volumes at all, or did you let WinISD choose them?

2.2 to 9 on that GCON is huge


Also suggest looking at Sundowns E series as well...
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Old 10-29-2012   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: More GP bass

Welcome to the GP club. take advantage of that huge trunk opening and make something nice. I'll be tuned in.
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Old 10-29-2012   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: More GP bass

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beckerson1 View Post
What do you want out of the box? Strictly SPL, SQ?

Did you change the volumes at all, or did you let WinISD choose them?

2.2 to 9 on that GCON is huge


Also suggest looking at Sundowns E series as well...
E series is probably enough for what I want but I want to be able to show off sometimes too

Like I said first time using WinISD so more I less I was trying to get a good response out of it and learn how to use the program for myself instead of just asking for any box I might need. I did change the volumes slightly and when compared the the SA's volumes I though I did something wrong so how would I go about checking the proper volume for the Gcon. I'm assuming that I keep the ratios between sealed/ported the same? Would I check the xmax graph after changing power input to ~800 watts? I want help designing not a design unless I really can't get it straight

Looking for SQ in the box design, partially why I chose a 4th.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RE Derek View Post
Welcome to the GP club. take advantage of that huge trunk opening and make something nice. I'll be tuned in.
I wont disappoint! (hopefully)


Any input on the Cadence wire?
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05 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP
Stock Monsoon Mids
JBL MS-62c tweets in OEM locations on OEM power
SAZ-1500 V1
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SSA Gcon 12 in 3 cubes at 29Hz

Quote:
Ni I'm trying to get him arrested for theft cause that much moofer for that price is an out right steal
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Old 10-29-2012   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: More GP bass

Wooo another GP owner! So far it's me, nkrell, pro, and you that have one IIRC.

Now for my advice. I had PWK design me a SQL box based on my max dimensions for the trunk and it turned out to be ported. So, the prefab boxes you've heard before probably sound like crap. IMO ported sounds just fine. I built that SQL box then recently switched to a sealed box and haven't noticed a huge difference in SQ. So, a ported box can still sound good :P I guess it depends on what music you listen to...

Next, as far as the HU I really don't know about the monsoon system. Mine had every option except for the monsoon system and I'm glad lol. Really, you should run a 2 or 4 channel amp to power your mids/highs because the difference is huge. If you can do that it will be easy to just bypass that whole monsoon system. If you want to retain the steering wheel controls you'll have to add a special thing for that and when you install a new HU you need to tap into the passenger side fuse box's sunroof wire for the yellow switched 12v source.
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Old 10-29-2012   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: More GP bass

Quote:
Originally Posted by Squeezumz View Post
E series is probably enough for what I want but I want to be able to show off sometimes too

Looking for SQ in the box design, partially why I chose a 4th.

Any input on the Cadence wire?
The Cadence wire is CCA which I wouldn't go with because it's only 70% as good as OFC. I'd go with the GCONs or SAs because they will do fine on less power and will be able to handle more when you want to upgrade down the road.
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Old 10-29-2012   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: More GP bass

I'm not saying ported sounds bad, but I personally haven't had the chance to hear a good one, yet. The main reason behind the 4th is so the sub is enclosed and cannot be damaged by dumb friends. Unless port forward sub forward...

Was planning on running the CDT's I still have new in the front but that will have to all be done with a HU at once to bypass that monsoon amp under the rear deck. Spensive. I think I read somewhere that the monsoon amp is some 8 channel garbage and distorts bad at like 50% volume. Bleh but the center dash speaker is kind of nice

Cadence bad wire. Gotcha
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Ni I'm trying to get him arrested for theft cause that much moofer for that price is an out right steal
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Old 10-29-2012   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: More GP bass

Quote:
Originally Posted by Squeezumz View Post
I'm not saying ported sounds bad, but I personally haven't had the chance to hear a good one, yet. The main reason behind the 4th is so the sub is enclosed and cannot be damaged by dumb friends. Unless port forward sub forward...

Was planning on running the CDT's I still have new in the front but that will have to all be done with a HU at once to bypass that monsoon amp under the rear deck. Spensive. I think I read somewhere that the monsoon amp is some 8 channel garbage and distorts bad at like 50% volume. Bleh but the center dash speaker is kind of nice

Cadence bad wire. Gotcha
Yeah just pick up a 2 channel amp for it and bypass that monsoon BS. Get to the speaker wire of the center channel speaker and wire it to your HU's speaker wire once you stop using the HU to power your CDTs. I really wanted the center channel speaker in my car so I think you should at least try it out. IMO it would raise the sound stage very well although it may be smart to get a new speaker for it.
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Old 10-29-2012   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: More GP bass

My crossovers are shot already so I'll just go active as soon as I install them. As for the center channel yea it does raise the sound stage and replacing it is as easy at popping off the grill and taking 2 screws out.

So all at once after I get the sub stage sorted I'll buy up a HU and amp when I get the funds.
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JBL MS-62c tweets in OEM locations on OEM power
SAZ-1500 V1
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SSA Gcon 12 in 3 cubes at 29Hz

Quote:
Ni I'm trying to get him arrested for theft cause that much moofer for that price is an out right steal
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Old 10-30-2012   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: More GP bass

Definitely follow Beckerson1's thread.
You could probably do a similar setup as him. 4th order for the SQ 6th order for SPL (or daily if you like how it sounds )



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Old 10-30-2012   #11 (permalink)
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Default Re: More GP bass

Discusses the 4th:

http://forum.realmofexcursion.com/su...ited-more.html

Then take a look at my build log for the 6th conversion...


I've modeled the SA 12 in a similar setup as mine and its peaky right at the upper tuning. The best one was the GCON (but I will have to recheck the parameters as I think a number was screwed up). Give me a couple minutes and I can give you a screen shot so you can compare your work with.





EDIT:

GCON



OA



SA



The E is included in the link above
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Last edited by Beckerson1; 10-30-2012 at 08:59 AM.
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Old 10-30-2012   #12 (permalink)
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Default Re: More GP bass

When you say you put in a similar setup are you talking the 2:1 ratio 4th?

The Gcon does seem to perform really well in WinISD and does sound the most appealing to me with the higher rms rating and larger coil so I'm set on that sub now.

My box is 2 sealed, and .9 ported as it gives a slightly flatter response than 1, tuned to 65 as a general starting point. That sounds about right to me but the sugested port seems very short at 8 inches (4 x4 square (Yea I'm doing a square port ))

How do I check for cone excursion correctly? Set the signal to 750 watts and its like off the charts but group delay when set at 1 watt is around 13 or 14 ms. Basically I want to know how to check excursion and if I am checking group delay right.

More post later, need to get some things done now.
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05 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP
Stock Monsoon Mids
JBL MS-62c tweets in OEM locations on OEM power
SAZ-1500 V1
Pos & Neg FA 2/0
SSA Gcon 12 in 3 cubes at 29Hz

Quote:
Ni I'm trying to get him arrested for theft cause that much moofer for that price is an out right steal
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Old 10-30-2012   #13 (permalink)
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Default Re: More GP bass

Quote:
Originally Posted by Squeezumz View Post
When you say you put in a similar setup are you talking the 2:1 ratio 4th?

The Gcon does seem to perform really well in WinISD and does sound the most appealing to me with the higher rms rating and larger coil so I'm set on that sub now.

My box is 2 sealed, and .9 ported as it gives a slightly flatter response than 1, tuned to 65 as a general starting point. That sounds about right to me but the sugested port seems very short at 8 inches (4 x4 square (Yea I'm doing a square port ))

How do I check for cone excursion correctly? Set the signal to 750 watts and its like off the charts but group delay when set at 1 watt is around 13 or 14 ms. Basically I want to know how to check excursion and if I am checking group delay right.

More post later, need to get some things done now.
Yes 2 sealed to 1 ported...

Fallen would be better to answer the port question as that's out of my knowledge level atm. I was in the same situation as you were with WinISD about a month ago.

Anyway you will need to un-check the Linkwitz Transform function... More details here:

http://forum.realmofexcursion.com/en...ar-winisd.html

Step 4 gets into which graph types to disable cause it causes inaccurate results...
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Last edited by Beckerson1; 10-30-2012 at 04:46 PM.
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Old 10-30-2012   #14 (permalink)
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Default Re: More GP bass

I read most every post/sticky on my break at work or free time in school. Did reread the posts you refereed too and it helped a bunch.

I want to get this design done pretty much by myself and then have someone approve of its averageness after I think its done.

Ok so heres the best I can do. Pretty flat across 35-75 and 3.5 db down at 80 hz and 25 hz.


This is where I'm having the most trouble. 4x4 port 8.5 inches long gives a max of 31.5 m/s velocity with the HP and LP filters. 34.8 m/s with them off.


Group delay. Looks good as its not above 13 ms anywhere.


How did I do on my first revision of my first attempt at a 4th?
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05 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP
Stock Monsoon Mids
JBL MS-62c tweets in OEM locations on OEM power
SAZ-1500 V1
Pos & Neg FA 2/0
SSA Gcon 12 in 3 cubes at 29Hz

Quote:
Ni I'm trying to get him arrested for theft cause that much moofer for that price is an out right steal
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Old 10-31-2012   #15 (permalink)
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Default Re: More GP bass

WinISD will recommend a port size/length but its not what you will use... I've noticed it changes the box size as you change the port size as well so check that...

Adjust the port length to be more then 8 and it should lower the port velocity. Just make sure it doesn't change the tuning on you (if it does change it back to 65)

Also suggest running this by Fallen... Shoot him a PM and have him check it... I just don't want to lead you in the wrong direction... To me it seems your on the right track
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Old 10-31-2012   #16 (permalink)
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Default Re: More GP bass

The box Fallen designed for you had a tune of 72 or so according to WinISD. That sounds high to me but there is only about a 1 db deviation from 80-30 and the rolloff is nice on both ends. Lowering the tuning doesn't gain me anything anywhere else so I thought why not and just go with it. Also that design has 30.25 sq inches of port so I matched that with a square port and it brought the velocity down quite a bit. Currently drawing it up in sketch up and will post the results in an enclosure thread.
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Ni I'm trying to get him arrested for theft cause that much moofer for that price is an out right steal
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Old 10-31-2012   #17 (permalink)
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Default Re: More GP bass

You can post the design here if you want. After all, this is your build log.
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Old 10-31-2012   #18 (permalink)
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Default Re: More GP bass

Quote:
Originally Posted by Burkem_10 View Post
You can post the design here if you want. After all, this is your build log.
Clutter my build log or clutter the forum...hmmm

Square port isn't fitting in there so great...Shorter port and higher velocity and tuning...or does the end of the port in the box need to be the width of the port away form the back wall or is there just a certain amount of clearance it needs? I like box design and need to find a good read on it.
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Ni I'm trying to get him arrested for theft cause that much moofer for that price is an out right steal
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Old 10-31-2012   #19 (permalink)
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Default Re: More GP bass

I feel like I've got it now. Horrible rendering in sketchup but it does the job well enough for me. It is slightly larger by about .1 cubes either side than what I need but I don't want to mess with it anymore tonight. Important thing is I have it in Torres with proper dimensions.

Quick math, more detailed tomorrow when I'm not running on red bull.
Sealed is 2.14 and 1.99 cubes before and after sub displacement. Ported is 1.14 and .89 before and after port displacement. Port is 5.25 x 5.25 and 12.5 long

The baffle for the sub is only 3.25 inches from the port wall, does it matter at all or is she fine there?

Final set of pics
Response here. Looks nice overall.

Port velocity. Peak around tuning is 22.3 m/s

And lastly the horrible render. I've never been a big fan of sketchup and could wip up this box in about 2 mins with the CAD program I've been using at school for a couple years.
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Ni I'm trying to get him arrested for theft cause that much moofer for that price is an out right steal
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Old 11-01-2012   #20 (permalink)
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Default Re: More GP bass

I feel like I've got it now. Horrible rendering in sketchup but it does the job well enough for me. It is slightly larger by about .1 cubes either side than what I need but I don't want to mess with it anymore tonight. Important thing is I have it in Torres with proper dimensions.
Being out .1cuft doesn't matter. IF you have too little volume stuff it with a little polyfil. If you have too much volume make some 45s and put them in the corners.
Quick math, more detailed tomorrow when I'm not running on red bull.
Sealed is 2.14 and 1.99 cubes before and after sub displacement. Ported is 1.14 and .89 before and after port displacement. Port is 5.25 x 5.25 and 12.5 long
Sounds about right.
The baffle for the sub is only 3.25 inches from the port wall, does it matter at all or is she fine there?
Personally it's a little close for my tastes. I prefer slot ports. You could do 12.5"x2" and it would be roughly the same port area, but you'd have a good 6" of clearence.

This would allow you to mount the sub motor in the vented chamber.(I don't think the 3.25" clearance will let you mount it this way)
Mounting with the sub motor in the vented chamber has several advantages. It makes it easier to get the sub in and out of the box, since an access hatch can be put in the sealed chamber. If the hatch is in the vented chamber you have a port to maneuver around. It also means the heat generated will be vented into the environment. You've essentially got a 1kW space heater, sticking that into a 2cuft sealed box sounds like a bad idea.

Good luck with the build. If your external dims are close to Beck's just use the design I drew up . (well assuming that tuning works well for you. You can modify it as you see fit.

Port velocity. Peak around tuning is 22.3 m/s
Excellent.
And lastly the horrible render. I've never been a big fan of sketchup and could wip up this box in about 2 mins with the CAD program I've been using at school for a couple years.
I love sketchup, I find it alot more intuitive than solid edge/autoCAD (the stuff we use at school).



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Old 11-01-2012   #21 (permalink)
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Default Re: More GP bass

OP I would say adjust the port as 3.25" will hardly fit your sub (that will hardly fit my crescendo 6.5's mounting depth)... That's having the sub basket in the 1 cu ft section.

It will cool better this way
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Old 11-01-2012   #22 (permalink)
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Default Re: More GP bass

Mounting the sub like both you guys said is something I didn't even think about. Doing it like that with a square port was impossible in this situation so modified it.

Outside dimensions are 29L X 20 D x 14H. Before any displacement they are 2 sealed and 1.44 ported cubes. Port is 2.25 x 12.5 x 13.5L which gives a tune of 69.
Here it is all drawn up with a couple errors. (port length) I'll check it all over later in more detail and should have it built in the next couple weeks.
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05 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP
Stock Monsoon Mids
JBL MS-62c tweets in OEM locations on OEM power
SAZ-1500 V1
Pos & Neg FA 2/0
SSA Gcon 12 in 3 cubes at 29Hz

Quote:
Ni I'm trying to get him arrested for theft cause that much moofer for that price is an out right steal
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Old 11-01-2012   #23 (permalink)
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Default Re: More GP bass

Quote:
Originally Posted by Squeezumz View Post
Mounting the sub like both you guys said is something I didn't even think about. Doing it like that with a square port was impossible in this situation so modified it.

Outside dimensions are 29L X 20 D x 14H. Before any displacement they are 2 sealed and 1.44 ported cubes. Port is 2.25 x 12.5 x 13.5L which gives a tune of 69.
Here it is all drawn up with a couple errors. (port length) I'll check it all over later in more detail and should have it built in the next couple weeks.
Looking good... If your interested in the 6th conversion here is what the graph looks like:



SSF at 25 hz (upper end tuned to 69 hz and lower to 33 hz), power at 1200W RMS... From the graph the response isn't all that bad either.
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Old 11-08-2012   #24 (permalink)
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Default Re: More GP bass

6th response looks nice but the 1.44 was before displacement and I don't want to have a box that fills my entire trunk. Final dimensions are 28.5W * 14.5T * 18D tuned to 70. I made a crappy cardboard mock up of it and test fit it.

Bought brass!


1/4" and 1 1/2" long is largest I could find at local stores. After buying them I used the search bar and found these that Sintorman recommended someome. Would one work better that the other or are my brass bolts fine?
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05 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP
Stock Monsoon Mids
JBL MS-62c tweets in OEM locations on OEM power
SAZ-1500 V1
Pos & Neg FA 2/0
SSA Gcon 12 in 3 cubes at 29Hz

Quote:
Ni I'm trying to get him arrested for theft cause that much moofer for that price is an out right steal
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Old 11-08-2012   #25 (permalink)
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Default Re: More GP bass

Quote:
Originally Posted by Squeezumz View Post
6th response looks nice but the 1.44 was before displacement and I don't want to have a box that fills my entire trunk. Final dimensions are 28.5W * 14.5T * 18D tuned to 70. I made a crappy cardboard mock up of it and test fit it.

Bought brass!


1/4" and 1 1/2" long is largest I could find at local stores. After buying them I used the search bar and found these that Sintorman recommended someome. Would one work better that the other or are my brass bolts fine?
You will be fine with the brass bolts.
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