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Old 05-24-2012   #1 (permalink)
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Default fallen, pro, thoughts?
i'm going to Build a pine test box to see if this works or not but i want to build my series tuned 6th order with the rear chamber as an abc box. im going to build a slide in test box for a single 15 in my buddies truck but what are your thoughts.

single 15" 3 cubes 6" round ports 24" long, 1.5 cube side chamber, 1 port to front chamber 1 port between the rear chambers and 1 port out of side chamber. front chamber 8 cubes 150 in^2 @ 80hz.....................
test sub will either be a lvl4 with sundown z3 parts or a t3 t2000 with sundown parts

what do you think will happen? is there anything that could even model this?
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Old 05-24-2012   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: fallen, pro, thoughts?
off topic, but will the SD coils fit the T2000's?
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Old 05-24-2012   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: fallen, pro, thoughts?
sundown z2 4 layer coils fit t2000 motors
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Old 05-24-2012   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: fallen, pro, thoughts?
better than the stock coils? I have access to the stock ones
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Old 05-24-2012   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: fallen, pro, thoughts?
i get a good price on sundown parts i have no clue how stock coils work never used any
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Old 05-25-2012   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: fallen, pro, thoughts?
i may Build a couple test abc boxes to get the best one down and then build a big front chamber onto the one that works the best
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Old 05-25-2012   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: fallen, pro, thoughts?
Discussed all this with Gar on Caco. Lower cut off is 30hz. There's debate on whether it's a 6th or an 8th. I say 8th because of the 3 chambers.

Here's what he's planning, not to scale, just a representation -

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Old 05-25-2012   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: fallen, pro, thoughts?
looks to me like it would cause cancellation within the enclosure? Looks to me like it will either work great or work bad. u sure U dont want to make the front chamber a horn port while your at it? LOL
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Old 05-25-2012   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: fallen, pro, thoughts?
well its def a variation of an 8th order.

you may have to tune the front chamber a little higher than normal.

i have no experience with something like that, but i'm sure it could work. Good luck!
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Old 05-25-2012   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: fallen, pro, thoughts?
Clearly an 8th, should be similar to a 6th with reinforced low end IF the phases don't fk each other.

also, fallen has mentioned to me that in a series tuned, the mass of air from the low end lowers the tuning of the front, which i think pro is alluding to. might be something to just keep im mind if it doesnt sound quite right when you Build it

It's pretty much a series 6th with a ported enclosure so to speak.

I think its a worthwhile experiment, could have some seriously stupid slows, but it might also be incredibly peaky somewhere.
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Old 05-25-2012   #11 (permalink)
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Default Re: fallen, pro, thoughts?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 666WMD View Post
Discussed all this with Gar on Caco. Lower cut off is 30hz. There's debate on whether it's a 6th or an 8th. I say 8th because of the 3 chambers.

Here's what he's planning, not to scale, just a representation -

not quite, that port in the top right corner needs to be parallel to the sub firing from the chamber the rear of the sub is in into the chamber the front of the sub is in. and all 3 of the 6" ports are the same length
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Old 05-25-2012   #12 (permalink)
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Default Re: fallen, pro, thoughts?
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Originally Posted by profundus-sanus View Post
well its def a variation of an 8th order.

you may have to tune the front chamber a little higher than normal.

i have no experience with something like that, but i'm sure it could work. Good luck!
normally i would tune the front chamber around 60 for a standard 6th series. but the roll off of the abc should be right above 60hz thats why i am tuning the front to 80hz. but i think ill build the abc box free standing and test it to make sure i get the response from it that i want before i put the large ported chamber in front of it. goal is to have a large bandwidth and be able to kill lows while still being able to burp up high without losing control of the cone 60 on music would be nice to accomplish while still sounding good and being able to kill @ 30hz
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Old 05-25-2012   #13 (permalink)
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Default Re: fallen, pro, thoughts?
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Originally Posted by perfect_prefect View Post
not quite, that port in the top right corner needs to be parallel to the sub firing from the chamber the rear of the sub is in into the chamber the front of the sub is in. and all 3 of the 6" ports are the same length
Changed it. Is that what you mean?

I blame your explanation.
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Old 05-25-2012   #14 (permalink)
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Default Re: fallen, pro, thoughts?
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Originally Posted by 666WMD View Post
Discussed all this with Gar on Caco. Lower cut off is 30hz. There's debate on whether it's a 6th or an 8th. I say 8th because of the 3 chambers.

Here's what he's planning, not to scale, just a representation -

Yeah, I can see why there is the debate. I'd say it's a 6th order. But I could be wrong. I could throw it in LEAP and see.

Anyways for modeling these, use AKaBak or leap. For normal 6th orders (either type), hornresp or subsim(if you can find it) can be used.

I have no idea what kind of response this will give you, tbh. I'm not going to try and BS. Done right I can see the ABC portion taking care of the typical null of a series 6th order. But I don't know if it would actually work that way.



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Old 05-25-2012   #15 (permalink)
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Default Re: fallen, pro, thoughts?
welp...that complicates things
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Old 05-25-2012   #16 (permalink)
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Default Re: fallen, pro, thoughts?
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Yeah, I can see why there is the debate. I'd say it's a 6th order. But I could be wrong. I could throw it in LEAP and see.

Anyways for modeling these, use AKaBak or leap. For normal 6th orders (either type), hornresp or subsim(if you can find it) can be used.

I have no idea what kind of response this will give you, tbh. I'm not going to try and BS. Done right I can see the ABC portion taking care of the typical null of a series 6th order. But I don't know if it would actually work that way.
That is ultimately my goal i want it stupid loud and flat and be able to play anything without worrying about excursion, basically i want to have my cake and eat it too all while banging every single victorias secret model lol
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Old 05-26-2012   #17 (permalink)
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Default Re: fallen, pro, thoughts?
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That is ultimately my goal i want it stupid loud and flat and be able to play anything without worrying about excursion, basically i want to have my cake and eat it too all while banging every single victorias secret model lol
:P well I doubt higher order boxes will achieve the flat response part :P
Not easily at least.

Anyways I think horns should be considered. In pro audio, you never see series 6ths, 8th order bps, or ABC boxes. There's a reason



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Old 05-26-2012   #18 (permalink)
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Default Re: fallen, pro, thoughts?
I vote for a rear loaded ABC/front loaded folded horn 8th order triple reflex bandpass enclosure!!

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Old 05-26-2012   #19 (permalink)
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Default Re: fallen, pro, thoughts?
I vote an infinite baffle, with 100 pyle blue waves.



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Old 05-26-2012   #20 (permalink)
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Default Re: fallen, pro, thoughts?
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:P well I doubt higher order boxes will achieve the flat response part :P
Not easily at least.

Anyways I think horns should be considered. In pro audio, you never see series 6ths, 8th order bps, or ABC boxes. There's a reason
doesnt have to be flat flat just not the twin towers lol i want to control the cone more than anything
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Old 05-26-2012   #21 (permalink)
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doesnt have to be flat flat just not the twin towers lol i want to control the cone more than anything
well I'm excited to see what you can pull off

My issue with ported boxes, is for an acceptable amount of port area you end up needing fairly long ports. Whereas with horns vent velocity isn't an issue.

I dunno, it always seems like there's a lot of wasted volume taken up by the ports. But at the same time too little, and you run into non-linearities, and that's no good either.

Then again if you've got lots of volume to spare, why not :P

Anyways as far as excellent cone control, look into front loaded horns. They behave similarly to 4th order bandpasses. (in fact, an oversized throat chamber and rear chamber, and a single horn segment with no flare, is a 4th order bandpass.)



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Old 05-26-2012   #22 (permalink)
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Default Re: fallen, pro, thoughts?
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well I'm excited to see what you can pull off

My issue with ported boxes, is for an acceptable amount of port area you end up needing fairly long ports. Whereas with horns vent velocity isn't an issue.

I dunno, it always seems like there's a lot of wasted volume taken up by the ports. But at the same time too little, and you run into non-linearities, and that's no good either.

Then again if you've got lots of volume to spare, why not :P

Anyways as far as excellent cone control, look into front loaded horns. They behave similarly to 4th order bandpasses. (in fact, an oversized throat chamber and rear chamber, and a single horn segment with no flare, is a 4th order bandpass.)
im looking at having about 25-30 cubic feet of usable space do you think that would be enough for 4 12's in a front loaded horn?
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Old 05-27-2012   #23 (permalink)
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im looking at having about 25-30 cubic feet of usable space do you think that would be enough for 4 12's in a front loaded horn?
TBH I don't know.

Look up the labhorn. It's a horn that can take on multiple 18s vented with a pair of 12s. Maybe just make 2 and put them in your car. Modding for your drivers T/S parameters and mounting depth.
It's probably one of the best front loaded horns out there. (for pro audio)

Live Sound: LSP Documentation Page - drawings, photos, specs and more - Pro Sound Web

Thing is, it's 26 cu ft for 2 12s.

That said, it's pretty much made for 1/2 space (outdoor venues). The loading in a car might let you get away with a lot less mouth area. The length of the horn should remain about the same(or longer if you want to play lower)

Anyways I just wanted to show you what a front loaded horn can do, with 12s.

It's around 103dB/w/m efficient. In night clubs these things have no issue getting up to 140dB In a car it would be stupid. But the issue (as usual) is lack of space. That, and unlike a wall, this is to complex to build inside the vehicle (IMO)

Anyways I've found using 1/8th space in horn resp is fairly accurate. And then just add in cabin gain.



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Old 05-27-2012   #24 (permalink)
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Default Re: fallen, pro, thoughts?
103w/m eh...

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Old 05-27-2012   #25 (permalink)
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Default Re: fallen, pro, thoughts?
if the woofer wasn't off axis i would build 4 of them up and throw them in my truck, haha.

kinda tempted to build a horn for 4 15's in my truck now though.
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