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Topic Review (Newest First)

12-01-2009 08:03 PM

Sicaudio

Re: On the Technicalities of Clipping

wow i sell it for 240 shipped lolz but i pay less as well and yeah i pay 5$ more for the 1500 than u do for the 1000 lolz get with me on your prices with wholesale house and we can work something out.
sicaudio@msn.com
twh and koby are the only 2 distributors in the us that are authorized so you at least get a full factory warranty lolz.
and i can have anything drop shipped straight from the warehouse as well

12-01-2009 06:03 PM

Spacecase

Re: On the Technicalities of Clipping

Sic the bxi1210d is $215 my cost plus ship but I'm just wholesaler I'm sure with your deal you have store front and dealship rights I just work out of fleamarket with out store I can't get much better deal. My resell of that amp is $325 anyday out here in N.C. TWH list the DSC1000.1 but not the 1500.1 the my cost is 180 plus ship. Is this about your prices to if not let me know could be a bargain chip next time I make order.

12-01-2009 11:15 AM

Sicaudio

Re: On the Technicalities of Clipping

whats ur price on the 1210d from them?

12-01-2009 05:12 AM

Spacecase

Re: On the Technicalities of Clipping

Thanx for offer sic but I pay cost for what I get just cant go big due to daughter getting ready for college, plus I feel the mb quart THW will not sell it in N.C. so out of my three distrubitors the Hifronics seem the best. Would have liked to put a couple old school us amps on it but afforded them..lol

11-30-2009 10:36 AM

Sicaudio

Re: On the Technicalities of Clipping

for the same price as the 1210d goes for i can do you an mbquart dsc1500.1 does the same or slightly more than a brutus 1610d does 240 shipped price

10$ more for east states. and dont let anyone BS you the hifonics brutus amps do clean rated power all day long.

11-30-2009 10:15 AM

Spacecase

Re: On the Technicalities of Clipping

I guess I'm clipping to hell out of my subs, but my amp sucx boss gt1500d its doing maybe 600-700 to 4 re 10's at 2ohm. It sounds clean but you can tell I have not pushed to sub enough yet I can max out all setting with no distortion I just picked up 4 more 10's going to buid box over xmas and thinking about 2 Hifonics bxi-1210d ne suggestion. I know get better equip but got to get what I can afford.///.lol

11-30-2009 05:29 AM

weddings

Re: On the Technicalities of Clipping

i did not know about the potential +3 db gain from setting for clipping.but the risk is to high for someone like me that has 2 cars to pay for a second mortgage and three kids to feed and clothe.

11-24-2009 03:58 PM

ZeusVI

Re: On the Technicalities of Clipping

oops?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krannyman92

not trying to be a dick, but it takes 5 seconds to check that this guy hasnt logged on since february.

11-11-2009 09:09 AM

madsciontist85

Re: On the Technicalities of Clipping

Steve Meade has a how to video on you tube explaining the process of using an o-scope. And I believe it has a link to where he got his o-scope at.

10-20-2009 05:14 PM

Krannyman92

Re: On the Technicalities of Clipping

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZeusVI

Try out an older nakamichi pa-506. compressor/limiter just on sub channels.

not trying to be a dick, but it takes 5 seconds to check that this guy hasnt logged on since february.

10-20-2009 04:59 PM

ZeusVI

Re: On the Technicalities of Clipping

Try out an older nakamichi pa-506. compressor/limiter just on sub channels.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sayar Kuchenski

Maybe manufacturers should start incorporating selectable limiters in the amplifier to prevent clipping?

12-12-2008 03:01 PM

eagle12s

clipping wha?

What Does Clipping Look Like? CLICKY to find out

-Drew

04-09-2007 03:36 AM

kurtdirt1

I fall into the category of a street beater. Disturbing the peace when I feel like it!

03-15-2007 07:28 PM

thechris

responses:
==limiters==
WRT limiters, there are a myriad of possiblities. Compression has been discussed. It has the downside that it generates more distortion at low volume because the compression starts at mid output, as opposed to hard clipping which only becomes audible @ rated power.

compression must be switchable, as it generates distortion and no amp maker will list an amplifier as 500W /w 5% distortion.

"Automatic Gain Control" is another option, but isn't suitable for music with a wide dynamic range, and it also has annoying aquisition times that cause the music to change volume during the song in a noticable manner.

fast transient limiters are another option. such limiters will produce hard clipping, but at less then max output. This limiter has a time delay. This allows peaks to play without issue, but limits power in hard clipping. This style of limiter may produce excessive distortion.

Soft clipping is cheap to implement, AGC is not. and there are others as well.

==Power==
There is a theoretical +3dB power gain of clipping vs a sine wave of equal peak output. only +2dB is in the fundamental. typically at high power levels there is other forms of acoustic limiting that reduce the acoustic gains so that an additional +2dB of power may only add +1dB of maximum SPL.

At the same time, the music is heavility distorted (near 23% THD), and there is a risk to equipment damage. At high listening levels, the human ear will have a hard time detecting the added maximum SPL and within a period of time will adjust to make the sounds seem quieter.

For street users, the gain of +2dB power is not as attractive as the gains of upwards of +10dB average SPL. (the music, on average, is louder, and low SPL notes will receive a larger gain then just +3dB)

Which is a good point in its own right -- short term (single note) power may see only a +3dB power gain, but long term (song) power gains may be near +6dB.

Thus instead of seeing 2x power, the speaker is seeing 4x power (or more). eg, the music normally would have a max power of 500W for a note, and 100W for the song. with heavy clipping, the max power output is 1000W and for maximum clipping, average power could be 1000W as well. (though it would likely be less). in this case, the power during heavy notes only increases +3dB, while the average power over the entire song is up +10dB!

==detection of clipping==
there are a number of ways to detect clipping. an oscilloscope works well for this, as does a spectral analyzer. use of a filter to remove the fundamental will allow precise detection of clipping (as only harmonics remain).

03-15-2007 06:44 PM

buddykiller

so, how exactly can you tell if you are clipping? i set all my gains by ear using what i call the "distortion" method.

03-15-2007 06:34 AM

almond

not only that, but that would raise the cost of an amp. and peole probably wouln't buy it. even at say $2.00 per amp, will increase the amp buy quite abit do to the volume produced.

03-15-2007 06:16 AM

ballin millenia

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sayar Kuchenski

Maybe manufacturers should start incorporating selectable limiters in the amplifier to prevent clipping?

i like that idea cuz people wont be blowing stuff up all the time but i doubt companies will do that cuz they love the repeat business

03-15-2007 05:58 AM

almond

I have slight clipping, but i know that my sub can take it. i don't know how long, but i know it can take it. I blew my na6000d. but i didn't even mention it. i was taking a chance and lost. oops

got a new rd 2200.1d. i haven't blown a sub yet. soooooo. we'll see how that works out.

03-15-2007 04:23 AM

MarsBlackmon

I guess im in the street class

03-15-2007 04:04 AM

bandcamp

interesting outlook on clipping.i have yet to set gains by the dmm route as i feel that by ear does fine for me.i did not know about the potential +3 db gain from setting for clipping.but the risk is to high for someone like me that has 2 cars to pay for a second mortgage and three kids to feed and clothe.so guess i am in the street class because i try to find a good deal on midline audio equipment.

03-14-2007 11:22 PM

Saynkuck123

Maybe manufacturers should start incorporating selectable limiters in the amplifier to prevent clipping?

03-14-2007 11:05 PM

almond

goodness, i belong to a myriad of those

03-14-2007 10:49 PM

thechris

On the Technicalities of Clipping

firstly, cliping IS bad. If accurate reproduction of audio is the goal, then clipping is bad.

But how bad?

==Users==
As per my other guides, there are a few type of users (4)
SPL Comp -- maximum peak SPL is all that matters
Street/SQL -- willing to accept mild distortion or imbalence for more SPL in music. More subjective then pure SPL Comp users.
SQ -- what sounds best to me? willing to accept audio "flaws" if they compliment the music.
HiFi -- pure objective user, music is reproduced exactly placing the artistic side purely on the artist.

==SPL Comp==
Clipping can provide a gain to such users. A fourier analysis of a pure square wave will show that there is 3dB of extra power compared to a sine wave of equal peak amplitude. What is nice is that 2dB of this is still in the fundamental, while only 1dB of the power is in odd harmonics. ( power in fundamental is (4/pi)^2 for a pure square wave)

1dB of power at these levels is still a lot though! and this is going to run the amp's PSU hot. The ideal amplifier for pure clipped useage would be a class B mosfet amplifer (can connect the PSU directly to the load, like a class D amp, but has neither the output filter nor the switching losses of a class D amp)

Additional post-amplifier filtering could reduce harmonic power. box design may allow acoustically high impedances at the 3rd and 5th harmonics, allowing the box to act as a filter and reduce the real power load on the amplifier.

This user is least likely to complain of equipment failures -- anyone putting 300% rated power to a speaker knows that it doesn't help the products MTBF! (oh, and any SPL comp user should expect and plan for equipment failures.)

==Street/SQL==
This user only cares about clipping because it may damage equipment. this user also listens to music, which is not as predictable as the pure sine wave.

For this user, clipping is a calculated risk. More clipping means more bass (on average). The loud notes might not get much louder, but softer notes will get louder, making for high SPL.

The downsides is that decay times will be elongated, possibly to the point that notes no longer end before other notes begin. This can be exacrbated by excessive bass boosts and box designs that tend to prevent notes from ending in a short enough time. this is sloppy bass.

(use of temporal-spectal analysis such as continous wavelet or gabor tranforms might help to show this graphically)

MTX has amplifiers with compressive features. compression will allow the user to have higher distortion at moderate distortion, with only a bit more at high volumes. This is a softer form of clipping.

This user is most likely to buy lower quality equipment, or otherwise attempt to overstress equipment on a regular basis. Complaints will arise when damage is done to equipment.

==SQ==
The SQ user is largely ambivilent to clipping. If clipping makes the music better then it is fine. otherwise its not. again, equipment damage is possible and unwanted. but this user will not typically overstress equipment and will only reach clipping due to filtering (EQ/crossover).

==HiFi==
This user despised clipping. And will buy excessively large equipment to prevent it.

Clipping is deceptively difficult to prevent. filtering can cause harmonics to add in less favorable phase relations, resulting in higher peaks than otherwise. passive filters have the advantage in low power applications in that they actually do store energy directly (as opposed to simulating stored energy as with active filters). Passives can allow high transient peaks.

==Contemporary==
Many gain setting guides cater to street users. there is increasingly more emphasis on setting gains based upon -3dB or -6dB tones. At the same time, there is tremendous resitance to bass boosting feautres that the Street or SQ user might desire because they like the sound.

==Conclusion==
Clipping isn't as bad as some say, but will take out equipment and make you look like a pissant to anyone else. Gains can be had, but at a potentially high risk to equipment. further, the street user will often blast music at inappropriate times for whatever reason.

in the end, a small amount of clipping probably won't kill you, but more clipping will eventually ruin the music and you definately run more risk for equipment by overstressing it on a regualat basis.

Knowing this, a user more concerned with SQ or hifi will question DMM gain setting guides, as these do not ensure either flawless or good sound.

Street/SQL users will have to do soul searchind and determine what an acceptable risk is when intentionally allowing clipping.

SPL users will clearly have to determine how much competitive advantage can be had from clipping. +2dB power** is attractive, but other effects can place the equipment at high risk of damage. its a gamble if the equipment can survive.

==Warning==
I am a predominantly SQ user. i may understate the issues with overstressing equipment on a regular basis. while small amounts of occasional clipping is not unexpected, high levels of sustained clipping is not good. clipping can have other adverse effects that have not been listed here that can cause real power losses to become much higher then otherwise. there is a certain art to clipping as well as a gambling nature. my hope is to show some of the benefits to clipping as well as show that clipping is not instantly destructive.

my advice is not to fsck with things that you don't understand or are unwilling to test. if you don't mind buying a new amp/woofer, go ahead and do what you will. some measurements of output currents and such might show you how real load is affected by clipping.

DON'T BE AN IDIOT WHEN SETTING YOUR EQ/GAINS, I AM NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR DAMAGES YOU DO BECAUSE YOU WANT MORE THEN YOU PAID FOR FROM YOUR EQUIPMENT!

*street and SQL user are similar, except street users are more accepting distortion and/or will buy cheap equipment.

** that's +2dB over rated power.

discuss.

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