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Thread: Designing a box for a car with WinISD Reply to Thread

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[QUOTE=Fallen;884883][SIZE=5][B]Step 1: Determine the response you want.
[SIZE=2]The response of a subwoofer is entirely dependent on the box it is in. The goal of your system will determine what kind of response you want. Also what sounds good to one person might not sound good to another. So you need to know how low you want to play with authority. Does a large peak at 45Hz sound good to you? Some people like it, hence why nearly every amp in production has bass boost centered around this frequency(or one close to it).
[/SIZE][/B][/SIZE]
[LIST]
[*][SIZE=5][B][SIZE=2]For SPL a response that has a large peak close to or at the cars resonant frequency is a good start.[/SIZE][/B][/SIZE]
[/LIST]

[LIST]
[*][SIZE=5][B][SIZE=2]For SQ you usually want as flat of a response as possible. This is achieved by rolling the sub off at exactly the same rate as cabin gain. For many cars it's more or less 12dB/oct. This is convenient since sealed and 4th order bandpasses roll off at this rate. Also it's important that they start rolling off at the same frequency that the cabin gain starts at. Otherwise there will be a hump or dip in the response.[/SIZE][/B][/SIZE]
[/LIST]

[LIST]
[*][SIZE=5][B][SIZE=2]For daily, in my experience, most people like a reponse with a gradual rising low end. In home and pro audio it's similar to a house curve. Thanks to cabin gain this can be achieved easily even with modest subwoofers.[/SIZE][/B][/SIZE]
[/LIST]

[LIST]
[*][SIZE=5][B][SIZE=2]For ground pounders/low end monsters etc the response in the low end is quite a bit higher than the 40-80Hz range.[/SIZE][/B][/SIZE]
[/LIST]
[SIZE=5][B][SIZE=2]
[SIZE=5]Step 2: Collect the T/S Parameters of potential subs and enter them into WinISD
[SIZE=2]Now that you know what kind of response you want, it's time to start modeling responses in WinISD. To do that you'll need some electro-mechanical parameters known as the Theile Small Parameters. These allow WinISD to model the response of the driver. It's important to keep in mind it models it in Half Space at 1m away. This is important because:
[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/B][/SIZE]
[LIST]
[*][SIZE=5][B][SIZE=2][SIZE=5][SIZE=2]Your dash is probably more than 1 meter away from the subs[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/B][/SIZE]
[*][SIZE=5][B][SIZE=2][SIZE=5][SIZE=2]But more importantly, a car is not half space. There are walls all around the listener. This means there will be a considerable static gain.[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/B][/SIZE]
[*][SIZE=5][B][SIZE=2][SIZE=5][SIZE=2]Because the car is also more or less a leaky sealed box, there will also be a increasing gain as frequency decreases. ie Cabin Gain.[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/B][/SIZE]
[*][SIZE=5][B][SIZE=2][SIZE=5][SIZE=2]There will be standing waves inside the car. These will cause destructive and constructive interference. One reason why the back seat often sounds much different than the front seat. And also why the kick might peak at a different frequency than the headrest or the dash.
[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/B][/SIZE]
[/LIST]
[SIZE=2][B]Luckily we can apply filters in WinISD to simulate some of these effects.
In winISD open up the Driver Database Editor (CTRL+D).
Fill out the name, manufacturer etc in the 'General' tab. Then click the 'Parameters' Tab 
Entering the T/S parameters can be tricky. This is because many of them are actually based on other ones, and rounding errors(or inaccurate measurements) will cause problems. WinISD can auto complete many of these values. Thus it is best only to fill in the ones that can be measured accurately, and let it calculate the ones that are difficult to measure.
I usually enter them like so:
[/B][/SIZE]
[LIST=1]
[*][B][SIZE=2]FS[/SIZE][/B]
[*][B][SIZE=2]qes[/SIZE][/B]
[*][B][SIZE=2]qms[/SIZE][/B]
[*][B][SIZE=2]VAS[/SIZE][/B]
[*][B][SIZE=2]mms[/SIZE][/B]
[*][B][SIZE=2]RE[/SIZE][/B]
[*][B][SIZE=2]SD[/SIZE][/B]
[*][B][SIZE=2]xmax(optional, but handy)[/SIZE][/B]
[*][B][SIZE=2]Le(not too important for subs)
[/SIZE][/B]
[/LIST]
[SIZE=2][B]Make sure the units are correct, otherwise the response will be wrong.
[IMG]http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i137/judtoff/untitled-8.png[/IMG]
Then click save to save the file. 
Repeat this until all the subs you plan on modeling are entered. Then close the database editor.
[SIZE=5]Step 3: Setup Model
[SIZE=2]To start modeling subs you will want to click 'New Project' or CTRL+N. 
You will be prompted to select a driver from a drop down menu. Choose one of the drivers you plan on modeling and click next.
[IMG]http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i137/judtoff/untitled2.png[/IMG]
Then you will be prompted for the number of drivers. Enter the number of drivers and click next. For an Iso-barik enclosure select isobaric and choose the number of pairs. This article will not deal with Iso-barik enclosures.
[IMG]http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i137/judtoff/untitled3.png[/IMG]
Next choose the type of enclosure. WinISD can do sealed, ported, 4th order bp, 6th order bp, and passive radiator enclosures.
Pay attention to the EBP(Efficiency Bandwidth Product), this will give you a rough indication of what type of box to put it in. EBP in the middle of the range can be used in most types of enclosures effectively.
[IMG]http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i137/judtoff/untitled4.png[/IMG]
Finally you will choose your alignment. This is only a beginning alignment, you'll want to fine tune it later.
Case in point: A DD9512e in a QB3 alignment is only .326 cuft tuned to 48Hz. This in not a suitable box for in a car. But in halfspace it will give the sub the smoothest roll off. It will completely lack the typical peaky SPL sub response.
[/SIZE][/SIZE][/B][/SIZE][SIZE=2][B][SIZE=5]Step 4: Apply Cabin Gain, SSF and LPF
[/SIZE][/B][/SIZE][SIZE=2][B][SIZE=5][SIZE=2] In this step we will be applying some filters to simulate cabin gain, the sub sonic filter on the amp, and the high pass filter on the amp. This should give us a rough idea of the in car response.
It is not incredibly accurate, since it does not take the vehicles geometry into account, but it is better than just assuming the response is in half space.
The shape of the curve will be close, but the actual magnitude of the graph will be incorrect. There is an additional 8-12dB or so of static gain. All we really care about is the shape of the graph.
To apply filters click the EQ/Filter tab on the enclosure editor window.
[IMG]http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i137/judtoff/untitled5.png[/IMG]
Then click add. You'll be prompted to select the filter type.
The order is the rolloff of the filter. 1st order is 6dB, and it adds 6dB for each order after that. A 4th order filter rolls off at 24dB/Octave.
Lets enter a LPF at 80Hz and 24dB/Octave.
[IMG]http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i137/judtoff/untitled6.png[/IMG] 
Lets enter a SSF at 20Hz and 24dB/Octave.
[IMG]http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i137/judtoff/untitled7.png[/IMG]
Finally Cabin Gain. This is entered an electrical filter, but in reality it is an acoustic filter. This has an undesired effect of causeing the excursion, port velocity, and pretty well any graph other than the transfer function magnitude and SPL graphs to be inaccurate. Keep this in mind when checking these graphs. It is simple to turn off this filter, to restore the accuracy to these graphs.
To simulate cabin gain in a typical sedan I use a Linkwitz Transform with the following parameters:
 f0=60Hz
Q0=.707
fp=20Hz
Qp=.707
[/SIZE][/SIZE][/B][/SIZE][SIZE=2][B][SIZE=5][SIZE=2][IMG]http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i137/judtoff/untitled8.png[/IMG][/SIZE][/SIZE][/B][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][B][SIZE=5][SIZE=2]This adds a gain at 12dB/Octave starting at 60Hz and ending at 20Hz. This is similar to cabin gain.
At any time just unclick the check box beside the filter name to disable the filter.
Now we can see the approximate response of the sub. Not looking as nice anymore with WinISD's original suggestion eh?
Red in this case has no filters applied, blue has cabin gain applied
[IMG]http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i137/judtoff/untitled9.png[/IMG]
[/SIZE][/SIZE][/B][/SIZE][SIZE=2][B][SIZE=5]Step 5: Adjust the tuning and volume
[/SIZE][/B][/SIZE][SIZE=2][B][SIZE=5][SIZE=2] Simply raise or lower tuning and box volume until you get a desired response.
Keep in mind that excursion will increase as box size increases. Also excursion is at a minimum at tuning.
Once the desired response has been obtained it's time to check the excursion graph.
In the signal tab enter the RMS wattage you will be sending to the sub.
Disable the cabin gain filter.
Click the top tab(probably says transfer function magnitude or SPL right now) and choose excursion.
[IMG]http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i137/judtoff/untitled10.png[/IMG]
If the sub is not going beyond xmax in the range of frequencies then everything is ok.
If the excursion is greater than xmax lower the box volume, change the tuning, raise the HPF(or in rare cases lower the LPF) or give the subs less RMS power.
Then check the excursion graph again until it is ok.
[IMG]http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i137/judtoff/untitled11.png[/IMG]
Now it is time to add the port.
The general rule of thumb is 16 sq in of port per cubic foot for slot ports. 
This works well for medium powered systems. For low power and high power systems it is overkill and insufficient respectively.
Click the 'Vents' tab. Clicking the shape allows you to change from circular to rectangular ports.
Enter a port size that will integrate well with the walls of the enclosure.
Now check the port velocity screen(Rear Port-Air Velocity). It is in the same drop down as the excursion screen.
[IMG]http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i137/judtoff/untitled12.png[/IMG]
For this cabin gain(linkwitz transform) must be disabled.
If the port velocity is above 30m/s the port will not function properly. For car audio I aim for 20m/s.
17 is more or less where chuffing begins to be audible.
Increase port area until port velocity is not excessive in the band of frequencies you wish to play.

Now take the enclosure volume+ port area*port length+subwoofer displacement and add it all up.
If it is greater than the gross working volume(=max X dimension-1.5*[/SIZE][/SIZE][/B][/SIZE][SIZE=2][B][SIZE=5][SIZE=2]Y dimension-1.5*[/SIZE][/SIZE][/B][/SIZE][SIZE=2][B][SIZE=5][SIZE=2]Z dimension-1.5*/12^3) [COLOR=Red](assuming 3/4" wood)[/COLOR][/SIZE][/SIZE] then you will need to go back and make the enclosure volume smaller, port area smaller, or increase the max dimensions. Then check all graphs again.
Wash Rinse Repeat until you are satisfied.
If you are not satisfied with the response, try another sub.
-Jud Tofflemire

[/B][/SIZE][/QUOTE]

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Topic Review (Newest First)

08-15-2013 09:49 AM

Fallen

Re: Designing a box for a car with WinISD

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slobalt7

Is this where you got the .707 for f0 and fp?

the .7 for fp and f0 is to give the linkwitz transform a smooth transition when simulating cabin gain. Doing it this way gives you the typical 12db/oct gain.

So in this case it actually has nothing to do with the tuning of the sub. It's just to create a filter that simulates cabin gain. You'll see .707 show up a lot, it's a magical number

08-13-2013 09:30 PM

cxa0897

Re: Designing a box for a car with WinISD

I don't know if fallen will chime in or not, so I'll try to answer for him. Basically, qtc is a measure in a system's frequency response curve. a qtc of .707, the butterworth alignment, is a smooth roll off and is commonly used in a broad range of applications, one of which is our audio systems.

here is a quick visual to give you an idea of how it affects the response

also keep in mind, this is an approximation, just another reason to pick a response that is sort of "middle ground" as opposed to something towards one end

08-13-2013 07:59 PM

Slobalt7

Re: Designing a box for a car with WinISD

Is this where you got the .707 for f0 and fp?

Quote:

The peak at tuning has nothing to do with the port size. It has to do with the system Q.
The box size, tuning frequency, and driver t/s parameters determine the peak vs. frequency response.
Here is a quote from Dan Wiggins (pretty sharp guy when it comes to subwoofer for those of you that don't know):
Qtc > 0.707 will have a bump in the response, loses some accuracy (tightness) and bass extension. The higher the Qtc (0.8, 1.0, 1.3, etc) the less accurate and the less deep bass you get.
Qtc=0.707 is called the Butterworth alignment. It provides the most bass extension you can get without the bump. Good all-around compromise alignment.
0.707 > Qtc > 0.577 is considered overdamped. Better accuracy, a bit less bass extension as compared to the Qtc=0.707 alignment.
Qtc = 0.577 is considered best transient accuracy. It's also known as the Bessel alignment. This alignment has the flattest group delay, which means that signals in the passband go through the speaker at the same speed, so everything stays coherent.
0.577 > Qtc > 0.5 are considered heavily damped. They offer some additional benefits, such as less overshoot and ringing, which can be desireable in higher order systems.
Qtc=0.5 is critically damped. This is the point where you finally reach zero overshoot in the signal. You will have no ringing. Considered "transient perfect", because there is no overshoot, IMHO it's not a significant gain over the Qtc=0.577 situation.
Qtc < 0.5 is considered overdamped. You're not ringing, but you're taking longer to reach the final state of the system. Things get slow down here.
GENERAL NOTES:
The lower the Q, the shallower the "knee" in the response. The slower the transition from flat to rolling off.
The lower the Q, the tighter the sound (to a point).
The higher the Q, the more midbass output, and the higher the peak SPL.
The higher the Q, the boomier the response, and the less accurate the response.
IN GENERAL: responses around 0.7 are considered "ideal" for car use. They are typically considered audiophile grade, with very good accuracy and extension. Higher Qtc values are considered more SPL oriented, lower Qtc values are considered more musically/SQ oriented.
Qtc variances of 5-10% are basically inaudible; you'll be hard-pressed to hear the difference between a Qtc=0.66 box and Qtc = 0.74 box.
Hope this helps!
Dan Wiggins
Adire Audio

12-25-2012 11:41 AM

DamienNicholas

Re: Designing a box for a car with WinISD

Can anybody try to plot the audioque HDC3.0 15" dual 1 ohm subwoofer with win-isd? I cant seem to do it, also the 8" 2.0 series. I need to build a center consol for 2 of the 8's and im having issues with the port and box size for the 15's. The box is pretty big: 9cubes after port and subs disp.

06-17-2012 08:14 PM

sivertsdad

Re: Designing a box for a car with WinISD

it gave me problems as well good to know im not the only one havnt been brave enough to try the original one.

06-17-2012 07:00 PM

sivertsdad

Re: Designing a box for a car with WinISD

it gave me problems as well good to know im not the only one havnt been brave enough to try the original one.

05-09-2012 09:17 AM

zonaplay1

Re: Designing a box for a car with WinISD

thank´s for take the time for explain the winisd process, is very important to me learn more about winisd.

01-19-2012 09:03 AM

Electrodynamic

Re: Designing a box for a car with WinISD

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fallen

It's normal for some of the parameters to differ from the manufacturers. Especially if they exaggerate certain ones. Try to stick to the ones I suggested entering, they tend to work best in my experience. (plus they are more or less the most commonly published ones as well)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fallen

It is irritating, but since they are dependent on each other it happens. Meanwhile some of the parameters are measured with different methods. So there can be a bit of error. The main thing is that the ones that need to agree do in WinISD. Otherwise you can't save the driver and that's just a pain in the ass.

But anyways if you're noticing a huge difference in BL(Magnetic Field X Length of wire in the gap) it's sometimes because the manufacture lists it with the coils in series, and lists the Re of a single coil. In which case make sure you go back and enter the Re of the 2 coils in series(ie double the value).

If things are out just a bit don't worry about them too much.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fallen

Yeah that's pretty typical.
Cheers!

To top it off the T/S from sub to sub in the same production run can vary quite a bit. IIRC CMS can vary 40% between subs in the same batch. The main thing is it gives you an idea of how the subs will perform. If you're ever super bored you can try varying the parameters and plotting the modified subs against the original(keeping the box the same obviously). Keep in mind you can't easily hear a difference of less than 1dB.

I do agree that some manufacturers have issues like that. However, we are not the latter and we do not do the things you have mentioned. For instance the Cms can be easily reverse calculated to 0.07 mm/N where as Klippel gathered T/S's list Cms as 0.08 mm/N which is considerably less than the 40% change that you eluded to previously. Our Qts was measured by Klippel at 0.61 and we list it at 0.55 (right at 10% deviation) and BL measured by Klippel at 18.1 vs. the 20 that we publish (right at 10% deviation) which is well within production tolerances.

01-14-2012 04:58 PM

Subbin Blazer

Re: Designing a box for a car with WinISD

Ok, thanks guys.

I downloaded the Alpha version, let's see when I have time to mess with it.

01-14-2012 04:56 PM

Subbin Blazer

Re: Designing a box for a car with WinISD

Ok, thanks guys. I download the Alpha version.

Let's see when i can have some time to mess with this.

01-14-2012 04:38 PM

cxa0897

Re: Designing a box for a car with WinISD

i find alpha to be a lot better. alpha lets you model the transfer function, xmax, and port velocity, which you cant do in the regular winisd. just use task manager to exit out of it and you should be good to go

01-14-2012 12:42 PM

jmelton86

Re: Designing a box for a car with WinISD

Quote:

Originally Posted by 49konvict

I have the alpha and the only glitch it gives me is you can't close it by the x button. You have to shut your computer down to close it other than that it works beautifully

Mine did that, too. Windows 7 64bit.
There is a new version out now, version 7 or something, that works perfectly.

The graph is white instead of the old black graph.

01-14-2012 04:57 AM

49konvict

Re: Designing a box for a car with WinISD

I have the alpha and the only glitch it gives me is you can't close it by the x button. You have to shut your computer down to close it other than that it works beautifully

01-14-2012 02:18 AM

Subbin Blazer

Re: Designing a box for a car with WinISD

Great tutorial, i'll have to give this a try. It's my first time using Win ISD, so let's see how it goes...
Can someone direct me to the specific Win ISD program that I need? I noticed that there is an "Alpha" version, but not sure if that's the one I need, it did mention something about bugs so i don't know which to go with...
I'm on Windows 7 32 bit home premium if it matters. Thanks

01-04-2012 06:54 AM

Fallen

Re: Designing a box for a car with WinISD

Quote:

Originally Posted by SINTORMAN

Well the BL is off by .06,,, the QTS is off by .002,,, the FS listed is 26hz but WINISD has it as 26.76,,, the CMS is off by .1,,, the SPL is off by .36.. I don't think its going to make a huge difference but What do I know lol.

Yeah that's pretty typical.
Cheers!

To top it off the T/S from sub to sub in the same production run can vary quite a bit. IIRC CMS can vary 40% between subs in the same batch. The main thing is it gives you an idea of how the subs will perform. If you're ever super bored you can try varying the parameters and plotting the modified subs against the original(keeping the box the same obviously). Keep in mind you can't easily hear a difference of less than 1dB.

01-03-2012 07:03 PM

SINTORMAN

Re: Designing a box for a car with WinISD

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fallen

It is irritating, but since they are dependent on each other it happens. Meanwhile some of the parameters are measured with different methods. So there can be a bit of error. The main thing is that the ones that need to agree do in WinISD. Otherwise you can't save the driver and that's just a pain in the ass.

But anyways if you're noticing a huge difference in BL(Magnetic Field X Length of wire in the gap) it's sometimes because the manufacture lists it with the coils in series, and lists the Re of a single coil. In which case make sure you go back and enter the Re of the 2 coils in series(ie double the value).

If things are out just a bit don't worry about them too much.

01-03-2012 06:50 PM

Fallen

Re: Designing a box for a car with WinISD

Quote:

Originally Posted by SINTORMAN

Yeah i did just enter the ones he listed in the order he listed them. It just makes me annoyed that I can't get all the specs to line up .... I guess I will just take it even though they are slightly off.

It is irritating, but since they are dependent on each other it happens. Meanwhile some of the parameters are measured with different methods. So there can be a bit of error. The main thing is that the ones that need to agree do in WinISD. Otherwise you can't save the driver and that's just a pain in the ass.

But anyways if you're noticing a huge difference in BL(Magnetic Field X Length of wire in the gap) it's sometimes because the manufacture lists it with the coils in series, and lists the Re of a single coil. In which case make sure you go back and enter the Re of the 2 coils in series(ie double the value).

If things are out just a bit don't worry about them too much.

01-03-2012 10:35 AM

SINTORMAN

Re: Designing a box for a car with WinISD

01-03-2012 07:46 AM

cxa0897

Re: Designing a box for a car with WinISD

im running vista and it flips out on me when i try to close it. im curious if it does it on all os
never knew about ctrl shift delete, your the man fallen. i hated having to go through the lock screen to get to the manager lol.

01-03-2012 06:21 AM

Fallen

Re: Designing a box for a car with WinISD

Yeah if you have Windows 7 it takes a **** fit when you try to close it.
Just do what cxa said, or try ctrl+shift+escape to bring up the task manager to close it.(ctrl+alt+delete on mine brings up the screen to lock the computer)

It's normal for some of the parameters to differ from the manufacturers. Especially if they exaggerate certain ones. Try to stick to the ones I suggested entering, they tend to work best in my experience. (plus they are more or less the most commonly published ones as well)

01-03-2012 05:56 AM

cxa0897

Re: Designing a box for a car with WinISD

Alpha does not close. Ctrl alt del ftw. try plugging in only the t.s that fallen listed. The rest of them, more or less, are calculated. If you try to enter your own numbers and just one differs slightly it makes the whole thing go ape sh1t with errors

01-02-2012 11:56 PM

SINTORMAN

Re: Designing a box for a car with WinISD

Anybody else having the WinISD Pro Alpha bug that you can't close it by hitting the X? It is quite annoying.

Is it normal for parameters not to match what is provided by the company... Say for example I was trying to model an Obsidian Audio 18 based on the TSPs they gave but no matter what order I did it in some of the parameters didn't match up and would give a lot of errors if I corrected them.

12-10-2011 10:31 AM

cxa0897

Re: Designing a box for a car with WinISD

Cool. I figured it would just change the rate of change , I was curious as to the reason for that exact value. I don't like to plug in numbers without knowing why

12-10-2011 09:36 AM

Fallen

Re: Designing a box for a car with WinISD

Quote:

Originally Posted by cxa0897

i honestly wrote in my response "im surprised this isnt stickied" but erased it lol.

very very good info though. showed me my 6th order wouldve been a nightmare after cabin gain

fixed it up, checked out xmax(didnt even know i could do that!) and now it looks much better, and the volumes sound alot more reasonable.

one question on the linkwitz parameters, any reason why you use .707? would moving it up or down affect it?

.707 is for a butterworth response. So basically the transition from the one frequency to the next is smooth. You'll see 0.707 show up often, it's 1/sqrt(2). Essentially it is how sharp the transition is. Anyways it depends on which Q you're talking about. Increasing Qp will increase the gain at fp. Decreasing Qp will decrease the gain at fp. Increasing Q0 will the transition from f0 to fp more sharp. Decreasing Q0 will make the transition will be more gradual.
Grey is the typical Qp=Q0=0.707.

For car audio just stick to these Qs. If you want to you could use a sealed box to back calculate the Qs for your car, by measuring the frequency response and then tweaking the graph on winISD to match it. You may need to add static gain and also some other more advanced things to come close to the measured response.

12-10-2011 04:57 AM

cxa0897

Re: Designing a box for a car with WinISD

i honestly wrote in my response "im surprised this isnt stickied" but erased it lol.

very very good info though. showed me my 6th order wouldve been a nightmare after cabin gain

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