Realm of Excursion - Reply to Topic

05-01-2014 12:20 PM

profundus-sanus

Re: Nightshade v.3 Information

man that's really making a nsv3 tempting.

05-01-2014 05:55 AM

sundownz

Re: Nightshade v.3 Information

I made a technical post the other day on Facebook regarding some of the design philosophy of the NS v.3 -- figured I would share it over here.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=1&theater

We built a set of NS v.3 12s with a smaller 8 3/8" spider pack, stock long 4-layer coil, and a Z v.3 style cone for a customer build requiring them to peak at 50+ Hz -- Fs came in at 47 hz so I am very pleased and they should be awesome.

[img=http://www.sundownaudio.com/misc/protos/NS_v3/Tech_Posts/FB_NSv3_12s.jpg]

[img=http://www.sundownaudio.com/misc/protos/NS_v3/Tech_Posts/10014741_639014686154006_2024985945688185714_o.jpg]

The customer asked about the raw BL figure so I did some explanation for him :

Part 1 :

"Little tech talk on the specs while I'm at it. As compared to a Z v.3 12" model (as they share the same cone configured this way) and also an NS v.2 12" model :

Z v.3 12" : BL^2/RE = 131.8 / MMS (276g) = 0.477 SPL Factor
Le = 1.12x RE for 50mm coil length (8-layer)

NS v.3 12" SPL : BL^2/RE = 204 / MMS (296g) = 0.69 SPL Factor
Le = 1.01x RE for 80mm coil length (4-layer)

NS v.2 : BL^2/RE = 201 / MMS (346g) = 0.58 SPL Factor
LE = 1.62x RE for 70mm coil length (8-layer)

Given the variation in SPL factor assuming all else equal that leaves us with an advantage of 45% to NS v.3 compared to the Z v.3 which is close to 1.5dB gain for burps. Also factor in that the coil is 60% longer and the spider is also over an inch wider and you have the potential for even more output; likely 2.5+ dB in the end.

Part of the design philosophy of the NS v.3 is the use of a VERY long coil for very large amounts of x-max -- but in order to keep LE and MMS down a 4-layer was used for the stock configuration. Thanks to the huge motor we can still get BL^2/RE on par with the NS v.2 but with much better MMS and LE figures."

Part 2 :

"Also... BL in and of itself has essentially no meaning without looking at the RE (DC resistance). So to properly analyze the spec you must consider BL^2/RE (The NS v.3 Dual-1 has a very low DCR so BL alone might look "low" compared to other higher DCR units) -- but this still isn't the entire picture so also look to their relationship to MMS to gather the "SPL Factor"

And still yet... if all of that looks good and LE is too high you STILL won't have good SPL performance at higher frequencies as LE works as a 6dB low-pass crossover. With the NS v.3 we are able to get a good mix of ALL of these aspects at the same time."

----------

I am not sure alot of people have realized yet how awesome the NS v.3 Le spec is yet... it is simply on par with the RE with an 80mm long coil. That is lower than the 50mm long coil used on the Z v.3 10 and 12 models... and MUCH lower than the NS v.2 coil that was 70mm long.

The cool thing about the NS v.3 is that we could use either of the other coils we compared to in this motor if we wanted to do so. I have sleeves that are perfect for the Z v.3 and NS v.2 coils -- so we aren't limited to JUST this configuration; but I chose it as stock due to it possessing such an excellent mix of Motor Force, Inductance, and Mass characteristics.

04-17-2014 04:21 PM

666WMD

Re: Nightshade v.3 Information

What's the peak to peak on the 18's? I know it's mad nasty but my OCD wants to know exactly how much.

04-17-2014 08:05 AM

sundownz

Re: Nightshade v.3 Information

Quote:

Originally Posted by southerntrendkill

Damn how much does one of them magnitizing machines cost ill bet a pretty penny!!

About as much as a decent new car

04-17-2014 08:04 AM

sundownz

Re: Nightshade v.3 Information

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymG-...ature=youtu.be

NS v.3 15" in action

04-09-2014 08:06 PM

southerntrendkill

Re: Nightshade v.3 Information

Damn how much does one of them magnitizing machines cost ill bet a pretty penny!!

04-09-2014 08:09 AM

sundownz

Re: Nightshade v.3 Information

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpLL...ature=youtu.be

Quick free air test of the woofer that I magnetized

04-09-2014 07:56 AM

sundownz

Re: Nightshade v.3 Information

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VMJN_hoVbk

Quick video magnetizing an NS v.3

03-19-2014 07:02 AM

little-kid-wit-bass

Re: Nightshade v.3 Information

These huge azz subs should be rated by horsepower now

03-19-2014 06:17 AM

profundus-sanus

Re: Nightshade v.3 Information

Quote:

Originally Posted by sundownz

All of the ones I've posted are aluminum coils. I do offer a sleeve setup that can utilize the old Z v.2 copper coils if one was so inclined.

it was more of a just making sure type thing haha. Some may have use for a copper coil but i definitely wouldn't' want to add to the moving mass

03-17-2014 01:25 PM

southerntrendkill

Re: Nightshade v.3 Information

Ok thanks that was a great short awnser..p.s. I love my Zv.3's.

03-17-2014 01:19 PM

sundownz

Re: Nightshade v.3 Information

Quote:

Originally Posted by southerntrendkill

The advantage depends on the overall design; but say with a given driver if you raise the BL you will reduce your Qts (among other things) and, in general, produce a higher SPL figure and, in general, will have a reduction in bottom-end output. It's about balancing it out in a driver intended to reproduce music -- in something like a DDZ (for example) you just want the most BL possible to produce high SPL figures at a given frequency.

03-17-2014 01:15 PM

southerntrendkill

Re: Nightshade v.3 Information

Quote:

Originally Posted by sundownz

What is your reference to not that high ? The ratio of motor force, mass, and stiffness was tailored for the Z v.3 to get the specs we desired from them.

yeah i know that you designed them to be what they are i guess the question came out wrong o guess i was asking what are the benefits of having higher or lower. And my refrence was just this other set of subs i have Phantom Soundz. im just trying to learn what the TSP's are one at a time so i actually know what im lookimg at sooner or later. :-)

03-17-2014 01:02 PM

sundownz

Re: Nightshade v.3 Information

Quote:

Originally Posted by southerntrendkill

If u have a second jacob i was wondering is that why the BL on my ZV.3 suns is not that hi because the gap isnt that tight on them?

What is your reference to not that high ? The ratio of motor force, mass, and stiffness was tailored for the Z v.3 to get the specs we desired from them.

03-17-2014 01:01 PM

sundownz

Re: Nightshade v.3 Information

Quote:

Originally Posted by profundus-sanus

are all of these coils aluminum windings?

All of the ones I've posted are aluminum coils. I do offer a sleeve setup that can utilize the old Z v.2 copper coils if one was so inclined.

03-17-2014 12:55 PM

southerntrendkill

Re: Nightshade v.3 Information

If u have a second jacob i was wondering is that why the BL on my ZV.3 suns is not that hi because the gap isnt that tight on them?

03-17-2014 12:49 PM

profundus-sanus

Re: Nightshade v.3 Information

are all of these coils aluminum windings?

03-17-2014 12:03 PM

sundownz

Re: Nightshade v.3 Information

Pulled specs on the first one from the batch we built w/ Red Spiders + XL Leads. Other than the XL lead wire these are bone stock -- just a bit heavier MMS from the extra giant lead wires but otherwise basically a stock spec.

Stock gap spec is 74.5mm steel pole // 85.2mm steel gap OD... coil is ~82.5mm OD and 76.7mm ID leaving a gap of 1.35mm OD and 1.1mm ID.

I also offer a pole sleeve of 75.5mm (0.6mm gap) and an OD sleeve of 84.25mm (0.875mm gap) // basically makes the gap very similar to the Z v.2 model (tightest gap we ever offered) -- for guys looking to burp these; that will pair great with the upcoming SPL cones and spiders for a nasty high frequency setup. BL will shoot up quite a bit with those tight sleeves.

02-24-2014 07:07 AM

sundownz

Re: Nightshade v.3 Information

The MAP cost has been changed as well :

10 - $739
12 - $759
15 - $789
18 - $819

02-24-2014 07:02 AM

sundownz

Re: Nightshade v.3 Information

Copied from Facebook update this morning :

Nightshade v.3 Update : As many of you know the NS v.3 features an "industry first" gap sleeve system -- the gap sleeves are all being machined locally; our machine shop did move their facility during out order so it has taken a bit of extra time. We do expect the sleeves to be done machining within 2 weeks; then we will be having them coated at another local vendor -- at which point we can start building!

We are making 5 different gap OD sleeves (so 6 options here... as the fattest coil doesn't use an OD sleeve) and 4 different pole sleeves (Gap ID). That makes about 45 possible gap combinations for the NS v.3 motor! Most customers will simply need the "stock" setup so if you aren't super technical don't worry we make it easy by simply offering the "stock" setup that will work great in most setups.

09-19-2013 05:36 AM

sundownz

Re: Nightshade v.3 Information

Small update from our machine shop -- we had to go aluminum rather than copper for the low inductance pole sleeve. It was going to run-over the budget by around $100 per driver (ouch!). So that was out. Good news is I have also tested aluminum sleeves and they work very well too

09-18-2013 07:10 AM

sundownz

Nightshade v.3 Information

The new NS v.3 woofers will have a HUGE number of options.

1) The motor supports two sleeves to configure it's gap size / overall performance.

• POLE SLEEVES (these are permanent; only selected when built) :
* Copper sleeve – for low inductance / low distortion
* Steel sleeve – for higher BL / higher SPL – STOCK SETUP

• OUTER GAP SLEEVE (these can be swapped when re-coning the driver) :
* 83mm OD – Z v.2 style coils; lowers mass / lowest inductance – for high frequency burps. My next round of Z v.2 coils will have a longer former for use on the new platforms.

* 85.2mm OD – Standard coil; VERY long 4-layer flat coil – maximum linear travel / good mix of SPL and day-to-day performance – STOCK SETUP
* 86.5mm OD – Equal to NS v.2, Z v.3, Z v.4 Gap – we can use any of those coils or any other 8-layer coil desired.

* 92.5mm OD (NO SLEEVE) – I will be carrying a VERY thick coil for maximum BL for this gap… higher inductance and mass so best for low frequency output. I’ll have these in later this year.

2) We will be able to use any spider stiffness level on them… X, Z v.4, or NS v.3 grade stiffness. They are 4, 5, and 6 layers respectively. These are “pack” spiders that come all glued together. We could also vary what diameter spider is used for specialized applications (not common).

* I will also have an “SPL Spider” Pack coming out… we can stack them from 1 to 6 layers thick; each one is harder per layer than the packs.
* The SPL spiders do not have as flat of a stiffness curve as the packs; so they are superior for SPL applications.
* The SPL spiders will come out towards the end of the year.

3) We can also use a Z v.3 style cone on the 12/15/18 models for lower mass if the customer chooses to use one of the shorter coils for SPL. The 10” model will NOT support a v.3 style cone as it's size is not standard. We would combine this with a smaller diameter spider pack to agree with the surround limites. This is a bit of a "budget" SPL cone setup that we can do.

4) I am tooling up a carbon fiber / fiberglass / honeycomb Nomex composite SPL cone (paired with a dust cap of the same material) in 10/12/15/18 sizes. This cone is lighter and stronger than paper – it also features a surround size in between the Z v.3 and v.4 sizing – it is best paired with the new SPL spider packs in their biggest diameter for a given cone size. Due to the reduced cone and surround mass the FS (resonance) of the woofer is increased to perform better for SPL burps. I expect these around the end of the year to early next year if all testing goes well.

-----

With all that being said... I will have to work up some sort of spread-sheet for the pricing on these with options.

-----

Okay so the MAP will be as follows for stock setup units :

10 - $820
12 - $840
15 - $875
18 - $900

Gap OD sleeves will be available for purchase to change the woofer later on down the line. As mentioned the ID sleeves are permanent so a motor will always be "Low Le" or "High BL" once setup that way.

Both sleeves are machined locally in the US and are pretty expensive to make. They do represent a decent chunk of the costs -- but we wanted to have the ultimate flexibility with configuring the NS v.3 so it will continue to be a viable motor for MANY years to come... we could even develop different OD sleeves for it later on down the line

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